From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 1 00:01:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA07883; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:01:16 -0500 From: dwashbur@nyx.net Message-Id: <199804010509.WAA06057@smtp.northlink.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:10:10 -7000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 640 I received the following question and have no idea what the answer is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ. > Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a >marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"? All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here? Thanks, Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions and polysyllabic verbiages. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 1 10:30:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10037; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:30:42 -0500 Subject: Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:39:21 -0500 x-sender: jrcovey@cii.cochran.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "james r. covey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1320691900-34409847@cii.cochran.com> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 495 re missive of 31/03/98 04:10 AM signed -dwashbur@nyx.net- : >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The >question is, what's an "ant-lion" a dragonfly-like insect. >and why did LXX use that term here? you've got me. some sort of random textual corruption, i'll wager. james ------------------------- James R. Covey WWW Systems Developer Cochran Interactive Inc. http://www.cochran.com direct ph. # 902.422.8915 office fax # 902.425.8659 jrcovey@cochran.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 1 11:18:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10362; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:18:38 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Glen Thompson" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:26:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Glen Thompson" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1320691900-34409847@cii.cochran.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19980401102714.38f1e5d5.in@mailhost.mlc-wels.edu> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 762 One would have to do a TLG search to investigate the accuracy of the translation, but the English meaning of ant-lion is not a problem. The Random House dictionary says: any of the several neuropterous insects of the family Myrmeleontidae, the larva of which digs a pit in sand, where it lies in wait for ants or other insects. I remember watching them at work in Zambia. You would notice a small conical hole in sandy soil, with perfectly smooth sides. When an ant would accidently nose over the edge, it would loose footing, struggle to keep from falling in further, but suddenly a projection would pop out of the bottom, grab the ant and pull it out of sight. It would appear to be a less than obvious alternate reading here. Glen L. Thompson From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 1 17:25:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13257; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:25:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3522C0B9.245197B3@inetport.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:33:29 -0600 From: Burkenstock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 i86pc) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX References: <1320691900-34409847@cii.cochran.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2012 I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had two good answers. They are as follows: There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ s.v. MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense 'ant' but also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus 3.102, Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES) etc. The Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by Christian writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the translator of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in his mind. Best wishes Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund University AND this one... Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted _Physiologus_ (there are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one Slavonic version, where comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So, now I know well that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father lion, and another part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such parents, he was neither predatory nor herbivorous. NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century, but some or many motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this book was already noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX. So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not? Basil Lourie St.Petersburg Society for Byzantine and Slavic Studies So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job. See ya, Burke Gerstenschlager -- "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning. - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 1 18:05:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA13477; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:05:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980402001222.007d3270@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:12:22 +0000 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX In-Reply-To: <199804010509.WAA06057@smtp.northlink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 744 At 11:10 28/03/98 -7000, you wrote: >I received the following question and have no idea what the answer >is. Does anyone have any insight as to why the translator apparently >coined this word? I haven't even been able to find it in LSJ. > >> Do you have an explanation as to why, in Job 4:11, the LXX has a >>marginal rendering of "ant-lion" for the Hebrew word for "lion"? > >All I can find out is that the word does indeed mean "ant-lion." The >question is, what's an "ant-lion" and why did LXX use that term here? There are three citations in Lampe [ 889a] for patristic use of MURMHKOLEWN including one from the commentary on Job 4:11 of Olympiodorus Alexandrinus. Also a ref. to Germanus I of Constantinople Regards, Maurice From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 2 09:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15971; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:22:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:22:38 -0500 From: alexander.mirkovic@vanderbilt.edu Message-Id: <199804021422.JAA15966@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:09:48 +0000 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 947 Dear list: It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN. This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some help. There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example, KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted, pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river. >From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The compound represents a species which has something from one and something from the other term in the compound. Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw around in their homeland. What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know. Best wishes! Alexander From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 2 10:17:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA16276; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:17:49 -0500 Message-ID: <3523B16B.AE88F089@accesscomm.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:40:27 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Job 4:11 LXX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199804021422.JAA15966@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ns2.accesscomm.net id JAA04558 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1592 alexander.mirkovic@vanderbilt.edu wrote: >=20 > Dear list: >=20 > It is very hard to tell what kind of animal was MYRMHKOLEWN. > This is how I proceed in similar cases. I hope it will be of some > help. >=20 > There are several compounds of this kind in Greek. For example, > KAMHLOPARDALH means "giraffe" or STROYTHOKAMHLO means > ostrich, or LEOPARDALH which is obviously leopard. (H KAMHLA is > the camel, the adjective O PARDALOS means motley, mottled, spotted, > pied, varicolored, TO STROYTHION is the sparrow). The most famous > compound is probably HIPPOPOTAMOS - horse of the river. >=20 > >From here one can get the logic behind the compounds in Greek. The > compound represents a species which has something from one and > something from the other term in the compound. >=20 > Most of these compounds represent "exotic" animals (of course what > Greeks considered exotic), or animals that the Greeks rarely saw > around in their homeland. >=20 > What is MYRMHKOLEWN ant+ leon, however, I do not know. An ant lion is a predatory insect that is indigenous to finr sandy areas. the larva 'scoops' out a bowl shaped crater in the sand and buries itself just below the surface at the bottom. When an ant, or other insect, falls in the crater, the ant lion emerges with it's huge mandibles and grabs the insect. The adult looks very much like a dragonfly. The family is Myrmeleontidae. Jack D=92man dith laych idneh d=92nishMA nishMA Jack Kilmon (jpman@accesscomm.net) =20 =20 =20 http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 2 12:48:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17304; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:48:08 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980402134653.00694254@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: dylan-j@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:46:53 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Jonathan Dixon Subject: tc-list Greek Mailing List In-Reply-To: <3522C0B9.245197B3@inetport.com> References: <1320691900-34409847@cii.cochran.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2888 Koine Grek Mailing List? That sounds interesting, can you send details? In Christ, Jonathan At 04:33 PM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote: >I asked my fellow Hellenists on the Koine Greek mailing list and they had >two good answers. They are as follows: > >There is more about this in the revised supplement of LSJ. Cf. also LSJ >s.v. >MYRMHX II. It appears there that MYRMHX was used not only in the sense >'ant' but >also referring to a fabulous animal of India. LSJ refers to Herodotus >3.102, >Strabo 2.1.9 (gold-digging MYRMHKES), 16.4.15 (lions called MYRMHKES) >etc. The >Job passage was given a number of allegorical interpretations by >Christian >writers (Didymus Caecus, John Chrysostom, Photius; cf. TLG), but the >translator >of Job is likely to have had the same concept as Herodotus and Strabo in >his >mind. > >Best wishes > >Jerker Blomqvist, professor of Greek language and literature, Lund >University > >AND this one... > >Howere, after recalling where I have read on this animal, I consulted >_Physiologus_ (there >are many versions and recensions, I consulted a critical edition of one >Slavonic version, where >comparison with Greek, Armenian and Ethiopian recensions is given). So, >now >I know well >that MYRMHKOLEWN is an animal having the face part of body of his father >lion, and another >part from his mother ant. He perished (Job 4:9) because, having such >parents, he was neither >predatory nor herbivorous. > >NB. The stuff of _Physiologus_ may taken as going back to IVth century, >but >some or many >motifs may be much more earlier. A Jewish-Christian background of this >book >was already >noted. So, it can reflect the same tradition as Job LXX. > >So, it is important to know, was the MYRMHX of India herbivorous or not? > >Basil Lourie > >St.Petersburg Society for >Byzantine and Slavic Studies > >So I hope that helps the discussion on the mysterious "ant-lion" of Job. > >See ya, >Burke Gerstenschlager > >-- >"I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning. > - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan M. Dixon (Student, Atlantic Baptist University) c/o Atlantic Baptist University Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada E1C 9L7 dylan-j@geocities.com jdixon@abu.nb.ca My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/ My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Apr 4 20:46:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27175; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 20:46:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980404214558.00697400@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: dylan-j@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 21:45:58 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Jonathan Dixon Subject: tc-list Wisdom Literature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 973 Hello, I've written a paper on the canonical order of the Wisdom Literature in the Old Testament if anyone is interested in reading it. I'm goimg to post it on the internet later on in the week. Please let me know if your interested and I'll forward you the site address. In Christ, Jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan M. Dixon (Student, Atlantic Baptist University) c/o Atlantic Baptist University Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada E1C 9L7 dylan-j@geocities.com jdixon@abu.nb.ca My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/ My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 5 13:50:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28528; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:50:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199804051758.MAA13896@eterna.binary.net> X-Authentication-Warning: eterna.binary.net: Host lnk2-ppp-42.binary.net [207.140.121.42] claimed to be dialup.binary.net From: "Jeff Friesen" To: Subject: Re: tc-list Wisdom Literature Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:57:23 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1242 Jonathan, I'm interested. Jeff ---------- > From: Jonathan Dixon > To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > Subject: tc-list Wisdom Literature > Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 8:45 PM > > Hello, > > I've written a paper on the canonical order of the Wisdom Literature in the > Old Testament if anyone is interested in reading it. I'm goimg to post it > on the internet later on in the week. Please let me know if your > interested and I'll forward you the site address. > > In Christ, > Jonathan > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to > know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jonathan M. Dixon > (Student, Atlantic Baptist University) > > c/o Atlantic Baptist University > Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada > E1C 9L7 > > dylan-j@geocities.com > jdixon@abu.nb.ca > > My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/ > My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 5 19:56:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA29295; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: <35289C6F.76DB@online.no> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 02:12:15 -0700 From: "Mr. Helge Evensen" Organization: Scandinavian Online X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list World English Bible References: <199803311738_MC2-3887-43D3@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 912 Harold P. Scanlin wrote: > > The World English Bible (WEB) > > The World English Bible is a 1997 revision of the American Standard Version > of the Holy Bible, first published in 1901. It is in the Public Domain. > > For the latest information, to report corrections, or for other > correspondence: > > Michael Paul Johnson > http://www.ebible.org/bible > mpj@ebible.org Dear TCers, Let me add the following: (Just a short note for those of you who may not have turned to the WEB website yet). The WEB is a literal translation; in language it is a revision of the ASV, but in textual foundation (as to the NT) it is based on the Majority Text (not the TR). However, there are a few deviations from the MT, but they are not intentional. They will be corrected in accordance with the MT. It is still a project under development (as far as I can tell). -- - Mr. Helge Evensen From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 6 10:24:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01189; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:24:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:24:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199804061424.KAA01184@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:50:00 +0100 From: Eduardo Castillo To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Criticism to the 2nd. Volume Of John Meier "A Marginal Jew, mentor, message and miracle." Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 354 My name is Eduardo Castillo, post-graduate student in theology I am looking for criticism to the 2nd vol.. of John P. Meier's book: "A Marginal Jew, Mentor, Message, and Miracle." (Published 1994-95) I welcome any information concerning this particular topic. Thank you Eduardo Castillo [Part 2, Text/HTML 24 lines] [Unable to print this part] From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 12 00:08:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA03926; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:08:25 -0400 Message-ID: <35304122.7C46D713@accesscomm.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:20:50 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Shabat Shalom X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ns2.accesscomm.net id XAA12341 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2094 Well, fellow TCers, today is a Shabat haGadol, just as it was 1,968 years ago. We will continue to research and discuss the historical Jesus, putting him, like a specimen, under the microscope of historical analysis. We will never really know why this one special person...perhaps the most special of all persons...captured so fully the minds and imaginations of so many at a time of so many crossroads, and the hostility of so many. He came from a small obscure satellite village in the hills of the Galilee and left leaving, more than anyone in history, an indelible mark on all the billions who would make up the future. He taught a message so profound and so true that very few of those billions, if any, could live up to it, even those who championed his cause and rang his name to future generations. Was he the *Son of God?* I don't know..with all my books, reading, thinking, historical analysis, linguistic and textual research...I don't know. The only thing that I do know is that if he was the example of his messages, he certainly was the "Sonnest" of God compared to all who would follow him. As the meteor crater in Arizona bears witness to an object that struck the earth but has disappeared, the event we celebrate tommorow, just like that impact crater in the dust of the desert, bears witness that *something* extremely unusual happened following that Pesach so long ago. We will continue to discuss it, to dissect it, to analyze it from many disciplinary approaches. We will continue to lift the historical person from the cacaphony of myths and legend, removing the miracles and dogmas... but I wonder if when the historical Jesus, that Y'shua bar Yosef, stands before us, stripped of his his ecclesiastical raiment, we will not find that person himself...as Walt Whitman would say..."Miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels." Happy Easter all Jack --=20 D=92man dith laych idneh d=92nishMA nishMA Jack Kilmon (jpman@accesscomm.net) =20 =20 =20 http://scriptorium.accesscomm.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 15 00:36:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA14305; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:36:37 -0400 Message-ID: <19980415043447.25643.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.100.146.179] From: "marc bauer" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list versions of the eucharist (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:34:46 PDT Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1822 thank you for such insights and insight. i make no pretensions to being an elitist scholar in the higher levels of the food chain known as academia (i miss being school despite the previous clauses.). try mellon's _mark as recovery story_. peace. it was a commentary i used during the previous liturgical year. marc bauer >Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:26:11 -0600 >To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu >From: "Robert B. Waltz" >Subject: Re: tc-list versions of the eucharist (fwd) >Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > >On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Bart Ehrman wrote: > >> For what it's worth, I have a pretty long discussion of this problem in >>the _Orthodox Corruption of Scripture_, where I argue that the shorter >>text is original, and the longer form was added by proto-orthodox scribes >>as an anti-docetic polemic (see pp. 197-209). > >Whereas I've always thought the two forms a conflation. There is good >evidence that Luke is using two different sources in the Passion account. >One is Mark, but one is something else (probably something that uses >John's chronology of the passion; note the reading in Luke 22:16, which >clearly implies that it is not yet Passover). Presumably one of these >sources used the sequence one cup-bread and the other bread-cup. Luke >combined them to produce the present three-item sequence. > >In assessing this, of course, it should be noted that I incline >to believe the Johannine rather than the Synoptic chronology of >the Passion (without being in any way dogmatic about it; I could >easily be wrong). My personal list shows 6 points in favour of >Mark's chronology and 11 in favour of John's. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 17 08:04:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA26670; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:04:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199804171204.IAA26664@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Steve Carson-Rowland" To: "Textual List" Subject: tc-list Philo's use of the LXX Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:01:59 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 375 Can anyone tell me which text type Philo Judaeus used. I have 'The Works of Philo; Complete and Unabridged' tr. C.D. Yonge, and Philo makes reference to the LXX (the letter of Aristeas story) in 'On the life of Moses II'. However, the editor of the volume makes no mention of the text type that Philo used. Thanks. Steve Carson-Rowland Queensland - Land of Eternal Summer From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Apr 18 02:31:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA01498; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:31:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199804180631.CAA01493@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Steve Carson-Rowland" To: "Textual List" Subject: Re: tc-list Philo's use of the LXX Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:30:04 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 945 STEVE CR wrote: Can anyone tell me which text type Philo Judaeus used. I have 'The Works of Philo; Complete and Unabridged' tr. C.D. Yonge, and Philo makes reference to the LXX (the letter of Aristeas story) in 'On the life of Moses II'. However, the editor of the volume makes no mention of the text type that Philo used. SEPPO SIPILA All I can say right now is that on his study "Philo's Bible" (Cambridge University Press 1950) Peter Katz (Walters) argued that during the transmission of Philo's works the biblical citations were changed to correspond the "later" form of the LXX, mainly the Lucianic text. If he is correct, we do not have the "text type Philo Judaeus used" in his extant works any more. [snip] STEVE CR My question was a little more basic to begin with.. I wanted to know, did Philo use the LXX or the MT? I'm assuming the LXX, but I'd like to be sure. Thanks, Steve Carson-Rowland Queensland - Land of Eternal Summer From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 20 12:55:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA08188; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:55:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:50:23 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: tc-list Ps 30:6 X-Sender: jwest@highland.net (Unverified) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980420165023.0066cd7c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 376 Any opinions about the reading of the second word of this verse? Is it 'rega'' or 'rogez' (gk = orge, latin = increpatio). Further, if the reading should be 'rega'' how did 'rogez' arise, and vice versa, as the zayin and the ayin are not exactly similar in form. Thanks, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 20 14:23:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA08569; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:23:37 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:23:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list new publication Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1998 Baker has published a new book that I think will be of interest to many readers of the list. Although this list is purposely academic and not commerical in nature, notices of other new books _related to textual criticism_ are welcome. Also, if you know of a new book in the field, or better yet, if you've written one, please have the publisher send a copy to Leonard Greenspoon, our book review editor. Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- NEW PUBLICATION Baker Book House announces the publication of Takamitsu Muraoka's *Hebrew/Aramaic Index to the Septuagint*. Muraoka critically examines all of the Hebrew-Greek and Aramaic-Greek equivalences assigned by the Hatch-Redpath *Concordance to the Septuagint*, particularly with an eye toward lexicographic and text-critical advancements in the study of both the Septuagint and the Hebrew Bible in the last century. Instead of viewing merely a list of page/column references, as in Hatch-Redpath's original Hebrew index, users can see at a glance a complete listing of the Greek equivalents for every Hebrew and Aramaic term in the Hebrew Bible, Sirach, and I Esdras. For a full explanation of the index, see Muraoka's article "A New Index to Hatch and Redpath" in *Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses* 73.4 (Dec. 1997) 257-276. The 160-page index sells for $19.99 until July 1, when the price increases to $24.99. The index is also printed in Baker's new edition of Hatch-Redpath's *Concordance to the Septuagint* (retail $125.00). Both publications are available from Baker Book House P.O. Box 6287 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516-6287 1-800-877-2665 http://www.bakerbooks.com/catalogs/academic/new.html David Aiken Editor, Academic and Reference Books Baker Book House daiken@bakerbooks.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 20 15:48:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA09007; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:48:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 525 Since his name was mentioned in a recent post to this list, and since traffic on the list has been rather light lately, I'm reminded that I've wondered for several years what the story was behind the name change (or whatever) from Peter Katz to Peter Walters (he was a LXX scholar). Does anybody on the list know? Jimmy Adair Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 20 16:05:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA09105; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:05:34 -0400 Message-ID: <353BA9B9.17A44300@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:02:01 -0700 From: Bernard Taylor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) References: X-Corel-MessageType: EMail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 502 James R. Adair wrote: > Since his name was mentioned in a recent post to this list, and since > traffic on the list has been rather light lately, I'm reminded that I've > wondered for several years what the story was behind the name change (or > whatever) from Peter Katz to Peter Walters (he was a LXX scholar). Does > anybody on the list know? Jimmy, My understanding is that he took refuge in England from the Nazis, and started a new life complete with a new name. Regards, Bernard Taylor From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 20 17:37:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA09538; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:37:37 -0400 From: "Matthew Bell" To: Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:36:03 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980420213738734.AAA894@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 435 > Since his name was mentioned in a recent post to this list, and since > traffic on the list has been rather light lately, I'm reminded that I've > wondered for several years what the story was behind the name change (or > whatever) from Peter Katz to Peter Walters (he was a LXX scholar). Does > anybody on the list know? MATT BELL Anyone know of good URL's (email lists) which deal with the origins of the LXX? Thanks Matt Bell From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 21 06:41:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA11379; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:41:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980421073825.007a8100@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: dylan-j@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:38:25 -0300 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Jonathan Dixon Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) In-Reply-To: <19980420213738734.AAA894@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 804 Does anyone know any of and email lists that deal with the canon and structure of the Scripture? Jonathan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan M. Dixon (Student, Atlantic Baptist University) c/o Atlantic Baptist University Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada E1C 9L7 dylan-j@geocities.com jondixon@geocities.com ICQ# 7216071 My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/ My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 21 12:05:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA12615; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:05:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:05:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199804211605.MAA12610@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:21:10 -0400 From: George Howard To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 706 James, I don't know the reason for the name change, but I think the change was from Peter Walters to Peter Katz. George Howard UGA James R. Adair wrote: > Since his name was mentioned in a recent post to this list, and since > traffic on the list has been rather light lately, I'm reminded that I've > wondered for several years what the story was behind the name change (or > whatever) from Peter Katz to Peter Walters (he was a LXX scholar). Does > anybody on the list know? > > Jimmy Adair > Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press > and > Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site > -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 21 18:38:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA14717; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:38:03 -0400 Message-ID: <353D1F60.C116A425@inetport.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:36:16 -0500 From: Burkenstock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 i86pc) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Ex 3.14 References: <3.0.2.32.19980421073825.007a8100@mail.geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 667 I am currently engaged in a philological and hermeneutical discussion concerning Ex. 3.14. Can anyone tell me or guide me to some good resources on how to translate "I am who/what I am". I've got the LXX, Vulgate, and a variety of English translations, but sadly I don't know Hebrew yet. HELP!!! philologically bound, Burke -- Burke Gerstenschlager orpheus@inetport.com http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~charis "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning. - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 03:54:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA15766; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:54:27 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:00:56 +0300 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: habas@netvision.net.il (E. Habas) Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 639 >Jimmy, > >My understanding is that he took refuge in England from the Nazis, and >started a new life complete with a new name. > >Regards, > >Bernard Taylor If this indeed was the case, did he volunteer to fight? I happen to know that Jewish refugees in Britain who enlisted were encouraged to change their names so that in case they become POWs they would at least not be identified as Jews. A relative of mine, born in Leipzig, not only changed his last name upon enlisting, but also acquired a good Scottish middle name (Leslie) which would hopefully account for his somewhat-not-perfect accent if he ever became a prisoner. Effie From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 09:26:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA16532; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:26:16 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <353D1F60.C116A425@inetport.com> References: <3.0.2.32.19980421073825.007a8100@mail.geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:28:13 +0200 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Rolf Furuli Subject: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2103 Burke Gerstenschlager writes >I am currently engaged in a philological and hermeneutical discussion >concerning >Ex. 3.14. Can anyone tell me or guide me to some good resources on how to >translate "I am who/what I am". I've got the LXX, Vulgate, and a variety of >English translations, but sadly I don't know Hebrew yet. HELP!!! > Dear Burke, You may want to consult Botterweck/Ringgren, "Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, III:369- about hyh. Three notes on translation: (1) The verb hyh in the imperfect (as in Ex 3:14) almost always has future meaning. I am aware of only three passages with a possible present meaning: Ruth 2:13, Job 12.4 and 17:6. The usual present tense used in English versions is, from a philological point of view, very strange. (2) The verb hyh is for the most part not used as copula (linking verb) as is the Greek EIMI. Illuminating this is the fact that apart from consecutive forms, hyh occurs 493 times in the OT while EIMI occurs 6469 times in the LXX. (3) There is no Greek verb corresponding to hyh, and that may be the reason why hO WN is used in the LXX. When a "dramatic" effect is connected with a word in the source language but there is no such word in the target language, modern translators often try to express the effect by another word in the neigborhood. This may have been the reason why the LXX translator chose hO WN, because happening and becoming is connected with hyh rather than just being. A present participle can cover both the present time and the future, a future participle would just cover the future. The LXX translator did not manage to convey the right *time* of the verb, (translation is often compromise) but he chose the best fit, which in his eyes was hO WN. If this is true, the rendition hO WN can be viewed as a translation of *both* occurrences of hyh - the "dramatic" effect caused by both occurrences of the verb is sought conveyed through the present participle, and EIMI in the LXX clause is just grammatical filling (copula). Regards Rolf Rolf Furuli Lecturer in Semitic languges University of Oslo From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 12:12:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17408; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:12:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199804221607.MAA16023@maestro.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Franz Schredl" Organization: WTBS Research To: Burkenstock Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:11:01 +0500 Subject: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 CC: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 667 Burke, Rolf Furuli gave some very good insight. This is one word in Hebrew [Ehyey] and could be rendered "I shall become." LXX reads [ho On], "The existing One." VG reads [Qui est] "He who is." Both really do not convey the full sense of [Ehyey]. As Rolf stated the Hebrew really points to the future, the ability of God to become anything to anyone, so it could be translated "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be." Cheers! Franz > Ex. 3.14. Can anyone tell me or guide me to some good resources on how to > translate "I am who/what I am". I've got the LXX, Vulgate, and a variety of > English translations, but sadly I don't know Hebrew yet. HELP!!! From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 13:21:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA17764; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:21:31 -0400 X-Sender: teopgo@strix.its.uu.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:18:45 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Pedro.Goncalves@teol.uu.se (Pedro Goncalves) Subject: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 442 >I am currently engaged in a philological and hermeneutical discussion >concerning >Ex. 3.14. Can anyone tell me or guide me to some good resources on how to >translate "I am who/what I am". I've got the LXX, Vulgate, and a variety of >English translations, but sadly I don't know Hebrew yet. HELP!!! Try Tryggve Mettinger, (Swedish titl ''Namnet och N=E4rvaron''; has been translated to English but I don't know under what title. Pedro From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 13:48:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA17919; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:48:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:48:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199804221748.NAA17914@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:57:55 -0700 From: Mark Gipe To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1717 Dear Burke On the Hebrew verb "ehyeh" at Ex 3:14 it is the first person future tense form of the verb "Hayah" , meaning "to be" so it means "I will be". If you want to say "I will be in Jerusalem tomorrow" you say "ehyeh beYerushalayim machar". But don't take my word for it! Here is a list of everyplace that it is found in the Tanah. Look them up! You will find the right meaning! ( only in Ex 3:14 do translators tranlate it "I am" ) Ex 3:12; Ex 3:14; Ex 4:12&15; Dt31:23; Jos 1:5 & 3:7; Jud 6:16; 1Sam 18:18; 1 Sam 23:17; 2Sam 7:14 & 15:34 & 16:18 & 16:19; Isa 3:7 & 47:7; Jer 11:4 & 30:22 & 24:7 & 31:1 & 32:38; Ez 11:20 & 14:11 & 37:23 & 34:24 & 36:28; Hos 1:9 & 14:6; Zech 2:9 & 8:8; Ps 50:21; Job 3:16 & 10:19 & 12:4 & 17:6; Cant 1:7; Ruth 2:13; 1Ch 17:13 & 28:6 ( numbers are from the Hebrew Bible not the English ) Have fun! If you have a fax # I will fax you a paper I wrote on this and also one a friend of mine wrote on this verse. Mark Gipe gipe@sd.znet.com At 05:36 PM 4/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am currently engaged in a philological and hermeneutical discussion concerning >Ex. 3.14. Can anyone tell me or guide me to some good resources on how to >translate "I am who/what I am". I've got the LXX, Vulgate, and a variety of >English translations, but sadly I don't know Hebrew yet. HELP!!! > >philologically bound, >Burke > >-- >Burke Gerstenschlager >orpheus@inetport.com >http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~charis > >"I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, >using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning. > - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ > > > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 22 17:24:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA18840; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:24:23 -0400 Message-ID: <353E5F19.8A140549@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:20:26 -0700 From: Bernard Taylor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peter Katz (Walters) References: X-Corel-MessageType: EMail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 872 E. Habas wrote: > If this indeed was the case, did he volunteer to fight? I doubt it, given the date of his graduation. Let me set out what I know: 1. His original name was Peter Katz 2. He fled from Nazi Germany 3. He graduated with a PhD from University of Cambridge (as Peter Katz) in 1945 4. He subsequently changed his name to Peter Walters D. W. Gooding writing in the preface to the posthumous publication of Walters' dissertation (The Text of the Septuagint. Its corruptions and their emendation. Cambridge, 1973), speaking of his regret that Walters did not get to complete Part Two, says: This is a great pity; but when one considers that difficult and trying circumstances under which Dr Walters had to work both before and after his flight from Hitler's Germany, the amazing thing is that he accomplished so much. Regards, Bernard Taylor From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 08:22:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02497; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:22:33 -0400 From: "Matthew Bell" To: Subject: tc-list The LXX Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:21:17 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980426122252078.AAA1018@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 375 Hi all If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. Thanks Matt Bell From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 11:14:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA02735; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:14:36 -0400 Message-ID: <002f01bd7125$5361f820$a9589fc1@cherokee> From: "Dierk Vandenberg" To: Subject: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:08:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1208 -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Mark Gipe An: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Datum: Mittwoch, 22. April 1998 19:48 Betreff: Re: tc-list Ex 3.14 >Dear Burke > >On the Hebrew verb "ehyeh" at Ex 3:14 it is the first person future tense >form of the verb "Hayah" , meaning "to be" so it means "I will be". [snip] ( only >(only in Ex 3:14 do translators tranlate it "I am" ) >Mark Gipe ---------------------------- Well done Mark, (Greetings, Rolf!) And it goes like this: I WILL BECOME, WHO I WILL BECOME That's future orientated eternal presence of the deity! But since Jerome scholars (have to) understand it as God's BEING FROM HIMSELF though the Torah knows no verb "to be" in the sense of an inactive existence, a perception first of Greek philosophy. "Who is the greater fool? The fool? or the fool who follows?" Regards, Dierk __________________________________ Dr. rer. nat. Dierk Vandenberg H. Heine University Duesseldorf Homepage http://privat.schlund.de/haGalil Mailbox : haGalil@gmx.net Mailing Lists: q-sayings-l@makelist.com __________________________________ I'm afraid of no scholarly ghost From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 12:03:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02830; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:03:31 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980426122252078.AAA1018@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:14:21 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2112 On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, "Matthew Bell" wrote: >Hi all > >If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me >privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into >question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT >writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be >that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. I personally don't see how there can be any doubt about this. There are two lines of evidence: The manuscripts and the quotations. We have LXX fragments which are dated as early as the second century B.C.E. So if one accepts the evidence of paleography, I think the matter is settled: At least part of the LXX was in existence by then. Then there are the quotations. Philo, the NT, and Josephus all quote the LXX. At times they quote the LXX at points where it differs from the MT. The obvious example of this is in Matthew: "Behold, a VIRGIN shall bear a son...." Since this is a mistranslation of the Hebrew, and since Matthew elsewhere translates the MT on his own, this can only have come from a copy of the LXX. A little comparative research will show that the correspondences between the NT and the LXX (usually the late LXX -- more like that found in A than B) are simply too great to be coincidence. The NT uses the LXX rendering far too often when the MT could be interpreted in multiple ways. There is a third line of evidence, which lies in the text of the LXX. This line of evidence is indirect but solid. The text of LXX often differs substantially from that of the MT. But the MT was already coming to be standardized by the first century C.E. Therefore any translation which does not conform to the MT must be older than that. I read somewhere a comment on Herodotus to the effect that the classics have been studied so much that the only way to produce a new theory was to produce a perverse theory. This sounds like an example of that. :-) Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 12:37:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02897; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:37:48 -0400 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:32:41 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX X-Sender: jwest@highland.net (Unverified) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980426163241.0066d224@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 798 At 01:21 PM 4/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all > >If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me >privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into >question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT >writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be >that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. > >Thanks >Matt Bell There is absolutely no doubt that the LXX existed BCE. There are fragments of it from Qumran, and Wadi Nahal Hever. Further, many of the quotations in the NT of the Hebrew Bible are clearly from the LXX. See Hans Hubner's NT Theologie, vol 1 for a thorough discussion. Jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 14:22:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03050; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:22:39 -0400 From: dwashbur@nyx.net Message-Id: <199804261821.LAA00926@smtp.northlink.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:17:36 -7000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19980426163241.0066d224@highland.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1645 > At 01:21 PM 4/26/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Hi all > > > >If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me > >privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into > >question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT > >writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be > >that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. > > > >Thanks > >Matt Bell > > There is absolutely no doubt that the LXX existed BCE. There are fragments > of it from Qumran, and Wadi Nahal Hever. > Further, many of the quotations in the NT of the Hebrew Bible are clearly > from the LXX. See Hans Hubner's NT Theologie, vol 1 for a thorough discussion. Correct. I've seen the writings and web pages that Matt mentioned, and basically their hypothesizing (dreaming) goes like this: the LXX wasn't produced until after NT times; subsequently, all NT copies were altered in their OT quotes to bring them into line with this LXX; the LXX was created by Origen when he created that column of the Hexapla; therefore, NT quotes based on the LXX are unreliable because they have been altered from what they originally were; we know this because there are no extant B.C. copies of the LXX. Obviously, this last point has been refuted by the Dead Sea materials, had already been refuted by quotes that predate Origen, and contradicts the uniform testimony of history, but hey, why screw up a good theory with a bunch of inconvenient facts? Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur I don't have ADD. My brain has a multi-tasking, multi-threading operating system. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Apr 26 16:47:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA03283; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:47:56 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980426204232.012afb38@utc.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:42:32 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1105 Matt: That theory arose because certain people are unwilling to concede that the NT writers cited a "corrupt" version as authorative scripture. There is actually no supporting evidence in the way of hard facts to support that the LXX is a post New Testament creation. At 01:21 PM 4/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all > >If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me >privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into >question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT >writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be >that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. > >Thanks >Matt Bell > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 09:11:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA05324; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:11:49 -0400 From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:07:49 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <19980426122252078.AAA1018@mbell.aapi.co.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <44C47154ACA@div.ed.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1420 RE: the Septuagint and quotations of the OT in the NT. --Among specialists in LXX-studies, there is the view that the term *Septuagint* should be reserved for the *Christian-era* Greek Bible texts, and that we should understand that these texts show recensional activities/efforts. Thus, we can differentiate between these Septuagint texts and "pre-LXX" texts or "Old Greek" texts, which are technically the pre-Christian mss of the Greek Bible. We do have to be aware that the Greek Bibles of the lst century readers were not necessarily at all points the same readings as what are found in the mss of the LXX upon which Ralfs etc depends. See, e.g., R. W. Klein, _Textual Criticism of the OT: From the Septuagint to Qumran_ Fortress, 1974. --Citations of the OT in the NT don't always follow the LXX mss exactly, and there the reasons could be (a) use of a variant pre-LXX Greek bible ms, or (b) free/fluid citation (always a factor in citation of the OT), and or (c) independent Greek renderings of the MT (my colleague, Timothy Lim argues that Paul's citations of the OT suggest that at least occasionally Paul gave his own translation of the Hebrew [_Hebrew Scripture in the Qumran Commentaries and the Pauline Letters_, OUP, 1997]). L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 13:30:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA06199; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:30:40 -0400 From: "Matthew Bell" To: Subject: tc-list The LXX Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:11:52 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980427173037640.AAA969@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 826 Matt Bell > >If this is not a matter of TC then please just ignore it or respond to me > >privately. I have been reading some material on the net bringing into > >question the existence of a BC LXX and the accepted view that the NT > >writers quote from it rather than the Masoretic. How conclusive can we be > >that a BC LXX was done, completed and used by the NT writers. > ROBERT WALTZ > I personally don't see how there can be any doubt about this. There > are two lines of evidence: The manuscripts and the quotations. > > We have LXX fragments which are dated as early as the second > century B.C.E. So if one accepts the evidence of paleography, > I think the matter is settled: At least part of the LXX was in > existence by then. MATT BELL Could you please specify which fragments you refer to? Thanks Matt Bell From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 14:26:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06373; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:26:19 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980427173037640.AAA969@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:26:05 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list The LXX Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1949 On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, "Matthew Bell" wrote: [ ... ] >ROBERT WALTZ >> I personally don't see how there can be any doubt about this. There >> are two lines of evidence: The manuscripts and the quotations. >> >> We have LXX fragments which are dated as early as the second >> century B.C.E. So if one accepts the evidence of paleography, >> I think the matter is settled: At least part of the LXX was in >> existence by then. > >MATT BELL >Could you please specify which fragments you refer to? I'm really not the expert on this (assuming I'm expert on anything); others on the list could doubtless tell you more. I quote, however, from the description in Kenyon/Adams of the LXX papyrus 957: "John Rylands Library, Papyrus Greek 458. The earliest extant fragment of a Bible MS. [remember, this is written in 1958], consisting of portions of four columns of a roll of papyrus extracted from the cartonage of a mummy acquired in 1917 by Dr. Rendel Harris. It is written in a find book hand, which can be assigned with confidence to the second century B.C., and contains Deut. xxiii.24-xxiv.3, xxv.1-3, xxxvi.12, 17-19, xxviii.31-33." There is also Papyrus Fouad 266, of the second/first century B.C.E., containing fragments of Deuteronomy. According to Klein, _Textual Criticism of the Old Testament_, p. 55, "[p]apyrus fragments if Exodus 28 and Leviticus 2-5 and leather fragments of Leviticus 26 and Numbers 3-4 -- all dating from the first century B.C. or first century A.D. -- have been discovered at Qumran." BTW -- one other note we might add on this topic: The translator of Ben Sira, writing in 132 B.C.E., referred to translations of the Law, Prophets, and "other books" in his time. We can't prove it was the LXX -- but it was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Pretty strong hint. :-) Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 15:04:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA06529; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:04:45 -0400 From: "Perry L. Stepp" To: Subject: RE: tc-list The LXX Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:11:31 -0400 Message-ID: <000901bd7207$ea0251c0$6b741ed1@plstepp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by endeavor.flash.net id OAA13751 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1511 Robert Waltz wrote: > BTW -- one other note we might add on this topic: The translator > of Ben Sira, writing in 132 B.C.E., referred to translations of > the Law, Prophets, and "other books" in his time. We can't prove > it was the LXX -- but it was a Greek translation of the Hebrew > Bible. Pretty strong hint. :-) One other point. The impression that most people begin with--I certainly thought this at first--is that the Septuagint is a single Greek text of t= he Old Testament, coming from a single group of translators over a short per= iod of time. My understanding (LXX specialists, please confirm/amplify/clari= fy) is that there is in fact no single Septuagint--there is rather a *group* = of pre-Christian Greek translations of the Old Testament, and mss from this group were popular among Hellenistic Jewish groups. PLStepp ***************************************************************** Pastor, DeSoto Christian Church, DeSoto TX Ph.D. Candidate in Religion, Baylor University #1 Cowboy Fan Keeper of the Top-10, news://alt.fan.letterman I know Hell is real--I've dealt with Comp USA's customer service department!=A0 So repent!=A0 (Or at least go to Best Buy.) Seeing upon how slippery a place Fortune for mortals and misfortune stand. Therefore the man that lives at ease should look For rocks ahead, and when he prospers most Watch lest he suffer shipwreck unawares. --Sophocles, *Philoctetes* 502-06 ***************************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 16:03:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA06684; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:03:42 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901bd7207$ea0251c0$6b741ed1@plstepp> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:33 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: RE: tc-list The LXX Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3290 On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, "Perry L. Stepp" wrote: >One other point. The impression that most people begin with--I certainly >thought this at first--is that the Septuagint is a single Greek text of the >Old Testament, coming from a single group of translators over a short period >of time. My understanding (LXX specialists, please confirm/amplify/clarify) >is that there is in fact no single Septuagint--there is rather a *group* of >pre-Christian Greek translations of the Old Testament, and mss from this >group were popular among Hellenistic Jewish groups. I've already conceded that I'm not a specialist on the LXX -- but I'm going to amplify anyway. :-) First, it is generally conceded that there were several different Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. The best-known are those we call the LXX itself, plus Aquila Theodotian, and Symmachus. All of these translations, except LXX, were translated from something close to the MT. The LXX itself went through assorted recensions. That of Origen, in the Hexapla, is well-known and has survived. We also are told of recensions by Lucian and Hesychius. That of Lucian is believed to survive in a variety of manuscripts. But there are, in fact, still other recensions. The obvious example is in the Book of Judges, where Rahlfs threw up his hands and printed both the text of A and that of B. Some of these recensions appear to be revisions -- e.g. the text of A often appears to have resulted when a text similar to that of B was revised toward the Hebrew that became the MT. This process probably happened several times. Thus we have, for most books, an "Old Greek" stratum, translated from a Hebrew original which *was not identical to the MT* (witness, e.g., Samuel or Jeremiah). We also have an LXX strand which, while preserving much of the Old Greek language, is textually closer to the MT. (I seem to recall reading that the NT most often quotes one or another of these revised, closer-to-MT versions of the LXX.) But it's important to note that all this varies on a section-by-section and book-by-book (and even chapter-by-chapter) basis. Some books -- e.g. Judges -- apparently circulated in independent translations. Others went through several processes of revision, but no second recension. And so forth. The moral: When studying the LXX, one cannot simply reconstruct "The LXX." One needs to determine what sort of text is in each manuscript, and proceed from there. In a way, it makes sense to refer to "the LXX" -- if by that we mean the Old Greek, and not the kaige or any of the later recensions. But since people often use the term "LXX" to refer to *all* these translations, one should always be aware of how individual authors use the term. >I know Hell is real--I've dealt with Comp USA's >customer service department! So repent! >(Or at least go to Best Buy.) Obviously, if you're quoting this, you *haven't* been to Best Buy's Customer Service Department. :-) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 17:04:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA06933; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:04:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:03:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ronald L. Minton" X-Sender: rminton@orionc0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list mss. 0278-0296 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980426163241.0066d224@highland.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 532 I am interested in uncials 0278-0296 which in Aland's _Text_, 1989, p. 127, were "newly discovered." If anyone can help with the century date and the text-type (or Aland's I, II, III, IV, or V categories), I will appreciate it. century text 0278= 0279= 0280= 0281= 0282= 0283= 0284= 0285= 6 mixed 0286= 0287= 0288= 0289= 0290= 0291= 0292= 0293= 0294= 0295= 0296= 6 -- Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@mail.orion.org W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581 Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 17:32:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA07026; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:46 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.32.19980426163241.0066d224@highland.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:32:11 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list mss. 0278-0296 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1142 On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, "Ronald L. Minton" wrote: >I am interested in uncials 0278-0296 which in Aland's _Text_, 1989, p. >127, were "newly discovered." If anyone can help with the century date >and the text-type (or Aland's I, II, III, IV, or V categories), I will >appreciate it. Most of these, I think, were discovered too late to be included in the T&T database. So I don't think they will ever be assigned "categories." But here's what I can add. The dates are from NA27. > century text >0278= 9 Mixed, Alexandrian/Byzantine. I'd guess it would be in Category III >0279= 8/9 >0280= >0281= 7/8 >0282= 6 >0283= >0284= >0285= 6 mixed <-- Same MS as 081 >0286= >0287= >0288= >0289= 7/8? >0290= >0291= 7/8 >0292= 6 >0293= 6 <-- Same MS as 089, 092a >0294= 6/7 >0295= >0296= 6 > >-- >Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@mail.orion.org W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581 >Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803 Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 27 23:50:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA07736; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:50:37 -0400 Message-ID: <354551A3.209B0685@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:48:51 -0700 From: Kenneth Litwak X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE References: <000901bd7207$ea0251c0$6b741ed1@plstepp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 576 I was reading Metzger's book on the Canon of the New Testament today, and he said that the Western text was probably the most widespread and popular text form of the 2nd Century. He didn't provide any footnote for this,k so I'm wondering how one can determien this, given that a)the Alexandrian, I thought, was considered generally the earliest identifiable text type and b) there are hardly any MSS from the 2nd century. How would we know what text type was most popular? Thanks. Ken Litwak University of Bristol Bristol, ENgland (and software engineer in California) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 09:13:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08873; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:13:21 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <354551A3.209B0685@concentric.net> References: <000901bd7207$ea0251c0$6b741ed1@plstepp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:09:14 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1755 On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Kenneth Litwak wrote: >I was reading Metzger's book on the Canon of the New Testament today, >and he said that the Western text was probably the most widespread and >popular text form of the 2nd Century. He didn't provide any footnote >for this,k so I'm wondering how one can determien this, given that >a)the Alexandrian, I thought, was considered generally the earliest >identifiable text type and b) there are hardly any MSS from the 2nd >century. How would we know what text type was most popular? Thanks. I think Metzger is following Hort in this. In any case, the basis of the argument is the Fathers. The most important second century fathers (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin) are regarded as having "Western" texts. (Of course, it should be pointed out that the works of Tertullian are in Latin, and don't agree with the others all that closely, and Irenaeus wrote in Greek but survives largely in Latin -- so the "Western" nature of their text may be determined in part by their language.) Even though I am offering caution about the Hort/Metzger assessment, I agree that it is the correct *method*. Since all early manuscripts are from Egypt, their testimony tells us nothing about the second century text except that the Alexandrian text existed. We need information from many places. So we have to use the testimony of the Fathers. We just have to be careful with it. :-) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 10:20:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09366; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:20:46 -0400 From: PMoore4733 Message-ID: <10bde19.3545e55d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:19:08 EDT To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 674 "...Most scholars date the emergence of the 'Western' text to the mid-second century, or shortly thereafter, but they also, as Martini has put it, 'leave the door open to an appreciation of the presence of particular readings in which D or other "Western" witnesses perhaps preserved the most ancient reading.' Note the footnote: "On the distinction bertween orignial and secondary 'Western' readings, see G. Zuntz's wide-ranging discussion, "On the Wester Text of the Acts of the Aspostles" Taken From pg. 293 "The Text Of The New Testament...." Third edition by Metzger. Paul James Moore ThD, New Testament Greek Midwestern State University, Continuting Education From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 11:13:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09546; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:13:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:13:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199804281513.LAA09541@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:31:43 GMT From: DC PARKER To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 280 I suggest that you start with the collection of papers 'Gospel Traditions in the Second Century', ed. W.L. Petersen, Univ. of Notre Dame Press, 1989. DC PARKER DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 11:14:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09565; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:14:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:14:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199804281514.LAA09560@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:33:29 GMT From: DC PARKER To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list mss. 0278-0296 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 212 These are the MSS of the Sinai find. They have yet to be made publicly available. DC PARKER DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 12:12:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09753; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:12:09 -0400 Date: 28 Apr 1998 16:10:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19980428161032.7575.qmail@np.nosc.mil> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu In-reply-to: (waltzmn@skypoint.com) Subject: Re: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE From: Vincent Broman Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1460 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- kdlitwak@concentric.net wondered about Metzger's opinion: > he said that the Western text was probably the most widespread and > popular text form of the 2nd Century. waltzmn@skypoint.com responded: > the basis > of the argument is the Fathers. The other source is the versions, particularly the Old Latin and Old Syriac, both of which are thought to trace back to the late second century. And remember that the Old Latin tradition comes not from a single translation but from many. While the MSS, versions, and patres associated with Egypt hang together pretty well as a text type, all the other extant 2nd-3rd century witnesses, which are usually called "Western", form a much less cohesive group, one for which many doubt it is appropriate to apply the label of "text type". Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work) Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W === PGPv2 protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNUX/NmCU4mTNq7IdAQEnoQP9FtYuHw4yemkfbtLdonBbUG0BsbbNed8Z +P/6jIEI73IQrI6vtan8orcfkWEurNcTGWZESPcPjns4cqYPg50k/i+F7ORftKIJ HMdfj3Oju7S4QEU8DOjr6uzE68BSVTrY/NFu1Hd7YQon1aUkOuerURe2jsWTf06d xy90Lkgx2Dk= =J2KW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 12:49:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09872; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:49:37 -0400 Message-ID: <6490C9C9F7B6D11195E50000F803CA9F061B45@esusa.esusa.org> From: Curt Niccum To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:48:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 563 Vincent Broman wrote: And remember that the Old Latin tradition comes not from a single translation but from many. Despite Jerome's statement seemingly to the contrary, the Vetus Latina Institute argues that all the Old Latin text types derive from one original translation. (Tertullian seems to have a distinct text, at least in Acts, probably because he did some of his own translating as he worked.) Whether one agrees with their findings is a different issue, but theirs is a major challenge to the general consensus Broman repeats. Curt Niccum From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 12:57:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09904; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:57:12 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980428161032.7575.qmail@np.nosc.mil> References: (waltzmn@skypoint.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:57:09 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1663 On 28 Apr 1998, Vincent Broman offered the useful reminder: >The other source is the versions, particularly the Old Latin and Old Syriac, >both of which are thought to trace back to the late second century. >And remember that the Old Latin tradition comes not from a single translation >but from many. While the MSS, versions, and patres associated with Egypt >hang together pretty well as a text type, all the other extant 2nd-3rd century >witnesses, which are usually called "Western", form a much less cohesive >group, one for which many doubt it is appropriate to apply the label >of "text type". As note, e.g, the proposal that we recognize a "syriac" text-type. But even if we ignore the Syriac witnesses, there are defects in the "Western" type. Tertullian and Irenaeus, or the Old Latins b and k, are too different. They represent the same *style* of text (just as an author may write in the style of another), but are not necessarily the same text. The other important point is that Codex Bezae stands clearly apart from *all* of these. We really need to define our terms in talking about the "Western" text. The tendency has sometimes been to define the "Western" text as anything non-Byzantine and non-Alexandrian. By this definition, all fathers outside Egypt seem to be "Western." But it is bad methodology. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 14:02:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA10154; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:02:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199804281742.TAA13770@mail1.arcadis.be> Subject: tc-list Syriac hunger strike (off-topic) Date: Mar, 28 Avr 98 20:00:49 +0200 x-sender: vale5655@mail.arcadis.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean VALENTIN To: "Liste TC-List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 995 I am sorry to post something off-topic, but I thought that some of you who study Syriac culture could be interested about knowing this. As you know, I live in Brussels (Belgium), precisely in the area where Assyrian and Syriac people are living. Some of them have begun a hunger strike in the church that is a few hundred meters from here, where also the Chaldean community celebrates the liturgy on sundays. This hunger strike, to say it in their words, is "to blame the 1915 genocide against the Assyrian-Syriac people", as they have put it on a banner in front of the church. If you want to express any encouragement and solidarity to them, just feel free to send an e-mail that I will print and bring to the church where they are staying. Also, if you know other people that might want to do the same, feel free to give them my e-mail address so that they can send their message to them through me. Thank you, Jean VALENTIN - Brussels - Belgium e-mail: jgvalentin@arcadis.be From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 15:46:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA10582; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:46:27 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980428163555.00698f08@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: dylan-j@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:35:55 -0300 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Jonathan Dixon Subject: Re: tc-list Syriac hunger strike (off-topic) In-Reply-To: <199804281742.TAA13770@mail1.arcadis.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1846 I'm not sure I really understand why they are doing this. Can you explain it to me again? in Christ, Jonathan At , you wrote: >I am sorry to post something off-topic, but I thought that some of you >who study Syriac culture could be interested about knowing this. > >As you know, I live in Brussels (Belgium), precisely in the area where >Assyrian and Syriac people are living. Some of them have begun a hunger >strike in the church that is a few hundred meters from here, where also >the Chaldean community celebrates the liturgy on sundays. This hunger >strike, to say it in their words, is "to blame the 1915 genocide against >the Assyrian-Syriac people", as they have put it on a banner in front of >the church. > >If you want to express any encouragement and solidarity to them, just >feel free to send an e-mail that I will print and bring to the church >where they are staying. Also, if you know other people that might want to >do the same, feel free to give them my e-mail address so that they can >send their message to them through me. > >Thank you, > >Jean VALENTIN - Brussels - Belgium >e-mail: jgvalentin@arcadis.be > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to know; but if any man loves God, the same is known by him." (1 Cor. 8:2-3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan M. Dixon (Student, Atlantic Baptist University) c/o Atlantic Baptist University Box 6004 Moncton, NB, Canada E1C 9L7 dylan-j@geocities.com jondixon@geocities.com ICQ# 7216071 My Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3342/ My Online Bible Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8373/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 28 16:42:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10831; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:42:29 -0400 Date: 28 Apr 1998 20:40:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19980428204052.7603.qmail@np.nosc.mil> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu In-reply-to: <6490C9C9F7B6D11195E50000F803CA9F061B45@esusa.esusa.org> (message from Curt Niccum on Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:48:03 -0500) Subject: Re: RE: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE From: Vincent Broman Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 730 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- curt.niccum@oc.edu wrote: > the Vetus > Latina Institute argues that all the Old Latin text types derive from > one original translation. Interesting, seeing the grand variety of renderings one sees in the different VL MSS. Does that mean that the Institute has a method for reconstructing this original translation? and a stemma? Vincent Broman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNUY+ymCU4mTNq7IdAQHrTQP9Hr7i26Kv3OrSQHxF7cREMz/9zkToHa7I RvMSmHgEyeshgOKWTeZI6NCyTk/H1AzPIQJJl/G4xFwj2T6aix0qnzgkA6o9glLp xAnlvyHB0eM3/m7q3/KCbHOPwywZ1bHnBKIP83bRwiiiMNe4unFFeMhLNVvNbLbd h6bLgEAOqcc= =IkAS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 03:29:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA12218; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:29:51 -0400 From: "Dr Johann Cook" Organization: University of Stellenbosch To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:25:10 GMT+0200 Subject: Re: tc-list Syriac hunger strike (off-topic) X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Dr Johann Cook" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <421BEB762FA@SEMT.sun.ac.za> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2196 > Subject: tc-list Syriac hunger strike (off-topic) > Date: Mar, 28 Avr 98 20:00:49 +0200 > From: Jean VALENTIN > To: "Liste TC-List" > Reply-to: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > I am sorry to post something off-topic, but I thought that some of you > who study Syriac culture could be interested about knowing this. > > As you know, I live in Brussels (Belgium), precisely in the area where > Assyrian and Syriac people are living. Some of them have begun a hunger > strike in the church that is a few hundred meters from here, where also > the Chaldean community celebrates the liturgy on sundays. This hunger > strike, to say it in their words, is "to blame the 1915 genocide against > the Assyrian-Syriac people", as they have put it on a banner in front of > the church. > > If you want to express any encouragement and solidarity to them, just > feel free to send an e-mail that I will print and bring to the church > where they are staying. Also, if you know other people that might want to > do the same, feel free to give them my e-mail address so that they can > send their message to them through me. > > Thank you, > > Jean VALENTIN - Brussels - Belgium > e-mail: jgvalentin@arcadis.be Dear Jean I am responsible for the teaching of Aramaic and Syriac in our department. I would like to express my solidarity with the group of Syriac people mentioned by you. On a humanitarian level it is simply correct that we should identify with this people; they have suffered tremendously in the past. Academically it is of course wonderful that there are still groups of people living today where ancient cultures and languages are still in use!! So, in the name of the department of Ancient Near Eastern Studies at the University of Stellenbosch in South Africa, I sympathise and identify with the honourable cause addressed by the Assyrian and Syriac grouping in Brussels. With kind regards > Prof. Johann Cook Department of Ancient Near Eastern Studies University of Stellenbosch 7600 Stellenbosch SOUTH AFRICA tel 22-21-8083207 fax: 22-21-8083480 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 09:34:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13087; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:34:45 -0400 Message-ID: <35472F54.A9D0A108@historian.net> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:47:00 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Re: B-Aramaic References: <421BEB762FA@SEMT.sun.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by picard.accesscomm.net id NAA10100 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 421 The b-aramaic list is now up. Those interested in Aramaic studies can join by sending e-mail to=20 majordomo@nazarene.net with the first line "su6scribe b-aramaic" (without the quotes, subject and replace the "6" with a "b"). Jack --=20 D=92man dith laych idneh d=92nishMA nishMA Jack Kilmon (jkilmon@historian.net) =20 =20 =20 http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 10:58:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA13339; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:58:24 -0400 X-Sender: schmid@ns1.nias.knaw.nl Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:58:23 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl (U. Schmid) Subject: Re: RE: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1871 >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >curt.niccum@oc.edu wrote: >> the Vetus >> Latina Institute argues that all the Old Latin text types derive from >> one original translation. > >Interesting, seeing the grand variety of renderings one sees in >the different VL MSS. Does that mean that the Institute has >a method for reconstructing this original translation? and a stemma? > >Vincent Broman On the "method" of the Vetus Latina Institut (Beuron) see the essay of B. Fischer, "Das Neue Testament in Lateinischer Sprache. Der gegenwaertige Stand seiner Erforschung und seine Bedeutung fuer die griechische Textgeschichte," _Die alten Uebersetzungen des Neuen Testaments, die Kirchenvaeterzitate und Lektionare_, ed. K. Aland, ANTF 5 (1972), pp. 1-92. As far as I understand, the claim of "one original translation" is generally confined to those parts of the NT that have been subjected to closer examination. The in the VL series edited parts (Catholic Epistles and Pauline Epistles) are said to be derived from one original translation. The main argument for one original translation is basically this: Despite the many differences in readings (when compared to the Greek text) and renderings (when compared to each other) the Latin witnesses also display a great number of similarities in readings as well as renderings (word choices in cases where other words could have been used). The experts usually infer that the sheer amount of these similarities testifies to a common stratum of material that points to a common underlying translation. Ulrich Schmid ------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ulrich Schmid E-mail: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl NIAS - Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study Meijboomlaan 1 2242 PR Wassenaar The Netherlands http://www.knaw.nl/nias/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 12:09:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13691; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:09:51 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:10:17 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: RE: tc-list Text families of the 2nd Century CE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2667 On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, schmiul@nias.knaw.nl (U. Schmid) wrote: >On the "method" of the Vetus Latina Institut (Beuron) see the essay of B. >Fischer, "Das Neue Testament in Lateinischer Sprache. Der gegenwaertige >Stand seiner Erforschung und seine Bedeutung fuer die griechische >Textgeschichte," _Die alten Uebersetzungen des Neuen Testaments, die >Kirchenvaeterzitate und Lektionare_, ed. K. Aland, ANTF 5 (1972), pp. 1-92. > >As far as I understand, the claim of "one original translation" is >generally confined to those parts of the NT that have been subjected to >closer examination. The in the VL series edited parts (Catholic Epistles >and Pauline Epistles) are said to be derived from one original translation. > >The main argument for one original translation is basically this: Despite >the many differences in readings (when compared to the Greek text) and >renderings (when compared to each other) the Latin witnesses also display a >great number of similarities in readings as well as renderings (word >choices in cases where other words could have been used). The experts >usually infer that the sheer amount of these similarities testifies to a >common stratum of material that points to a common underlying translation. In the case of the Catholics, this strikes me as very possible. But, of course, the number of Latin witnesses there is very slight. I'm also willing to concede it in the case of the Pauline Epistles, with the possible exception of r, which (textually) is very different from the other Old Latins -- in places seeming almost Alexandrian. The gospels, of course, are the source of most of the divergences. It is here that the theory must be tested. :-) I think it safe to say that, *textually*, the various witnesses (k and e versus b, ff2, etc.) do not derive from the same original. But the textual basis of a version can change without the style of the version changing (witness the evolution of most of the Eastern versions -- there are early witnesses which are non-Byzantine, and later versions which are much more Byzantine, yet the wording of the translation sometimes changes less than the textual base). So: The question becomes, Could the European Latin be a revision of the African Latin, with the textual base modified by the language still often reflecting the original? I don't have the sources to speak to this. But I'd be curious to the reactions. The comments in the standard manuals usually don't say much about this. If a consensus evolves, though, I'd better put it on my web site. :-) Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 12:38:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13792; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:38:44 -0400 From: BillCombs Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:36:53 EDT To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: tc-list TLG Software Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 512 This is not exactly on topic, but I wonder if someone could give me some info on software for use with the TLG database. I got the TLG Engine from Linguistics Software for the Macintosh and am pretty disappointed. I am not exactly sure what I was expecting, but apparently all it can do is display text. Can anyone give me info on which software is best for the Mac, and I am also interested in Windows 95 if someone has info on that platform. Bill Combs Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary BillCombs@aol.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 13:37:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA14022; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:37:30 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980429183541.0088ce70@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:35:41 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: Re: tc-list TLG Software Cc: BillCombs@aol.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 460 At 12:36 29/04/98 EDT, you wrote: >also interested in Windows 95 if someone has info on that platform. > Bill: Have a look at the Silver Mountain Software page at: http://www.silvermnt.com/ for details and prices of the TLG Workplace ( and also the PHI Workplace_ Maurice Maurice A. O'Sullivan mauros@iol.ie To attack a man for talking nonsense is like finding your mortal enemy drowning in a swamp and jumping in after him with a knife. --Karl Popper From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 15:24:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA14435; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:24:05 -0400 From: "Perry L. Stepp" To: Subject: RE: tc-list TLG Software Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01bd739c$f3ac7520$e7d0c2d0@plstepp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 884 Hello, all. BillCombs wrote: > This is not exactly on topic, but I wonder if someone could give > me some info > on software for use with the TLG database. I got the TLG Engine from > Linguistics Software for the Macintosh and am pretty > disappointed. I am not > exactly sure what I was expecting, but apparently all it can do is display > text. Can anyone give me info on which software is best for the > Mac, and I am > also interested in Windows 95 if someone has info on that platform. At Baylor, we use the TLG with Pandora, a Mac Hypercard-based program. It works well on searches--you have to learn the tricks, some of which I've figured out. I've never tried to print from Pandora, but I've used it to generate .rtf files and printed them through MS Word. There are several free Greek fonts that one can print with, once you've figured out the configuration. PLStepp From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 29 17:09:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA14966; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:09:37 -0400 From: "Matthew Bell" To: Subject: tc-list Thanks Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:36:58 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980429210949109.AAA1037@mbell.aapi.co.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 94 Thanks to all who posted comments on the 'LXX'. The information was enlightening. Matt Bell