Subject: ms identification schemes

From: "James R. Adair" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:39:32 -0400 (EDT)

The fact that Von Soden and Tischendorf (and I think also Swete) use
different ms identification schemes has been noted in a couple of recent
posts to the list.  Is there a single reference work that relates the
various schemes to one another (including Gregory-Aland and the two big
LXX editions), and in particular, is there an electronic version of such a
list?  Maurice Robinson mentioned Bob Kraft in regard to Von Soden's
numbers--can you give us more details, Maurice?  If there are different
numbering schemes in use for Syriac, Latin, or other versions, I would
also appreciate information on these as well.  I would like to create a
single reference list that ties them all together.  It would also be nice
if the contents of each ms were included in the description, so maybe this
could tie in with what James Tauber and others are doing with the
Electronic New Testament Manuscript Project. 

Jimmy Adair
Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
    and
Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
---------------> http://scholar.cc.emory.edu <-----------------

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From: [email-masked] (Vincent Broman)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:26:31 PDT

[email-masked] asked:
> Is there a single reference work that relates the
> list?

The Aland Kurzgefasste Liste has tables matching up
Gregory-Aland numbers with Von Soden numbers and Tischendorf numbers.
The IGNTP Luke volumes have a table with these three nomenclatures
for the MSS cited therein.
I have a table of Von Soden <-> Gregory numbers I found in
Gregory's Textkritik.

I am not aware of any such list in machine-readable form.
The IfNTTF in Muenster might have such lists,
but I doubt they would make such available to the public.

Vincent Broman             Email: [email-masked]                    =   o     
2224 33d St.               Phone: +1 619 284 3775                  =  _ /- _   
San Diego, CA  92104-5605  Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W     =  (_)> (_)  
___ PGP protected mail preferred.  For public key finger [email-masked] ___

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:23:57 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, James R. Adair wrote:

> LXX editions)

Aland's _Kurzgefasste LisËÆÂÎDxlûêç

> and in particular, is there an electronic version of such a

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:48:23 -0400 (EDT)

> various schemes to one another (including Gregory-Aland and the two big

Aland's _Kurzgefasste Liste_ (1963) has a conversion section between not 
only von Soden and Gregory-Aland numbers, but Tischendorf and 
Greg.-Aland, and Scrivener and Greg.-Aland. (Other very early editions 
are also included, but are basically no longer relevant). The new edition 
of the _K.Liste_ will presumably have the same conversion data.  Perhaps 
Ulrich can confirm this?

> and in particular, is there an electronic version of such a

I'll bet they have one in Muenster *;-)  Question is, will they permit 
uploading it for scholarly purposes to scholar.cc.emory.edu for the 
benefit of participants of this list?  Since the list is factual data 
which can only convert numbers correctly in one way, it could be 
legitimately typed in by any enterprising individual and uploaded, but 
this will entail a good deal of work.  Perhaps some of our Muenster 
friends can help pull some strings in this regard?  Otherwise, I probably 
could enlist a student volunteer or two to accomplish the task; but it 
would certainly be nicer to obtain this with the blessing of the Aland 
Institut. 

> Maurice Robinson mentioned Bob Kraft in regard to Von Soden's
> numbers--can you give us more details, Maurice?  

Benedikt Kraft.  _Die Zeichen fuer die wichtigeren Handschriften des 
griechischen Neuen Testaments_, 3rd ed. (Freiburg: Herder, 1955).  The 
actual conversion data from Von Soden to Gregory also appear in that 
work.  Again, the bare factual conversion data could freely be 
reproduced, since facts themselves are not regarded as copyrightable; 
also, the groupings of MSS as presented in Kraft are merely following Von 
Soden's original order, which dates to 1911 and is public domain in this 
country.

There is also Friedrich Krueger's _Schluessel zu Von Soden's Die Schriften
des Neuen Testaments (Goettingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1927) which
does the same as Kraft.  I have all of these available to me, as well as
von Soden's edition and prolegomena and Tischendorf's 8th edition.  All
who study textual criticism should have the conversion keys between the
numbering systems, and this can be provided if desired, though the best
alternative is still to see whether the Aland Institut would make
electronic listings available.  Otherwise, someone has to type a lot
(scanners would be problematic due to Greek letters, italics, and
subscripts etc. used in all the lists).

> If there are different
> also appreciate information on these as well.  

The keys in the various Vetus Latina volumes should provide appropriate 
lists, I would think.  These also could come from Muenster or Beuron perhaps.

> I would like to create a

All this would be very helpful, and I certainly would endorse such to be 
compiled or supplied.

_________________________________________________________________________
Maurice A. Robinson, Ph.D.           Assoc. Prof./Greek and New Testament
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary     Wake Forest, North Carolina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:30:22 -0400 (EDT)

> I have a table of Von Soden <-> Gregory numbers I found in

I believe there have been some changes to the Gregory numbers under 
Aland's administration of them, and therefore would not utilize Gregory 
directly.  The K.Liste is still the best source overall.

> but I doubt they would make such available to the public.

I was not so pessimistic on this point, since the conversion list is a 
simple table of factual data, with no originality concerned, and in this 
country, under the Supreme Court's "Feist" decision, facts remain 
non-protected by copyright.  Thus, I would hope that Muenster would 
kindly provide the conversion list for use by the scholars who frequent 
this list.  Otherwise, the list can be compiled (and if one worries about 
it, the antiquated and now public domain Gregory list can be made the 
basis, with corrections added in parentheses).