Subject: Re: Software for NT TC??

From: "Dale M. Wheeler" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:36:35 -0700

>From: [email-masked]
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 23:37:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: Software for NT TC??
>
>Fellow TC Colleagues:
>
>Is anyone aware of any software (for windows) which has the NA27 or UBS4 WITH
>an aparatus?  I would love to find some software for aiding in NT TC.
>I was told by the "Bibleworks for Windows" company (Hermeneutika), that they
>were working on adding this to their already wonderful bible software CD.
>I encourage any and all TC subscribers to write and encourage the completion
>of this addition to their software.  You may write to: [email-masked]
>or check the website: http://www.intr.net/bibleworks.
>Thanks all.
>In His Service
>Rich Elliott (RE [email-masked])

I'm sure that if you asked any of the scholarly software producers (GRAMCORD
Institute, Logos, etc.), they would tell you that they are trying to get 
the apparatus into their program. The problem is not the software companies--
they'd put such a database into their programs in a heartbeat if they could
get access to it. The problem is the reluctance of the United and German
Bible societies; they are at this point unwilling to license out the data
for electronic use. As I have been privy to some of these discussions, it 
seems that their basic concern is the misappropriation and misuse of the
electronic versions, ie., someone makes a minor adjustment to the data and,
voila, publishes their own GreekNT with textual apparatus (they had the same
fears for the text, which delayed its electronic distribution for years).
UBS has just recently appointed a new person to be in charge of electronic
rights (Herr Dr. Bader), and as yet we don't know what his philosophy will
be with respect licensing (I and some others have some requests pending...).
Jimmy Adair or Harold Scanlin, who I believe is also on this list, from the
ABS, might be able to supply some additional insight and up-to-date info on
the licensing situation...

***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Th.D.
Research Professor in Biblical Languages        Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan Street                               Portland, OR  97220
Voice: 503-251-6416    FAX:503-254-1268     E-Mail: [email-masked] 
***********************************************************************

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 19:22:47 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Dale M. Wheeler wrote:

> The problem is the reluctance of the United and German

This is all the more reason why the bible societies should simply
recognize and declare the biblical text itself to be public domain instead
of trying to be selfishly proprietary with the very texts they were
constituted to distribute freely or at the lowest possible cost.

The same likewise should occur for the simple _factual_ data regarding
manuscript variations in the apparati (mere facts under US law cannot be
copyrighted).  

In view of the non-cooperation of the bible societies in this area,
someone (anyone!) would do the entire scholarly community a wonderful
service if they merely would prepare an electronic edition of the public
domain texts and apparatuses of Tischendorf and/or Von Soden, with the
older numbers simply converted to those in current use.  Correction of
errors in those apparati could be made later.

_________________________________________________________________________
Maurice A. Robinson, Ph.D.           Assoc. Prof./Greek and New Testament
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary     Wake Forest, North Carolina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: "James R. Adair" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:00:11 -0400 (EDT)

I'm afraid I don't have any additional information about the licensing of 
the NT text with an apparatus (either NA or UBS).  I, too, am very 
interested in making the text _and_ apparatus freely available to 
scholars via the Internet.  Maybe a compromise that those at the Bible 
societies would be interested in would be to make the text and apparatus 
of UBS3 and NA26, which are not the latest editions, available.  I'd be 
interested to hear from those associated with the Bible societies 
concerning this idea.  

I also second Maurice Robinson's suggestion that the texts & apparatuses
of Tischendorf, Von Soden, etc., be keyed in and made available to all. 
This would supplement the work of the ENTMP (which is just doing mss, as
far as I know).  If someone is interested in heading up the project, at
least to get started, we could use this list to coordinate efforts, and we
could make results available on the TC home page.  I'd really like to know
if anyone is interested in either coordinating the project or
participating in it. 

Jimmy Adair
General Editor of TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism
------> http://scholar.cc.emory.edu/scripts/TC/TC.html <-----

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From: "James K. Tauber" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:51:00 +0800 (WST)

> errors in those apparati could be made later.

Tim and I have talked about this for a while as a first big step for the 
ENTMP.

James K. Tauber <[email-masked]> 
Associate Director, Electronic New Testament Manuscripts Project

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From: "James K. Tauber" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:55:24 +0800 (WST)

On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, James R. Adair wrote:
> far as I know).

No, the ENTMP is very much interested in apparatus too.

> If someone is interested in heading up the project, at

Once the ENTMP site has finished moving over to the U.S., I'll gladly 
provide as much information as needed on how people can help the ENTMP, 
keying in aparatus, manuscript transcriptions and more.
There's no need to start anything new up as it would just duplicate parts 
of what the ENTMP is trying to do.

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From: "James R. Adair" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:51:06 -0400 (EDT)

> of what the ENTMP is trying to do.

I absolutely agree.  Since the ENTMP is interested in doing Tischendorf 
et al., all of us who are interested should work with them.  I know they 
will take volunteers!

Jimmy Adair
Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press
    and
Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site
---------------> http://scholar.cc.emory.edu <-----------------

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From: Vincent Broman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 08:19:11 PDT

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> of Tischendorf, Von Soden, etc., be keyed in...

Clint Yale has produced the text of Tischendorf8 (the lemma)
in machine-readable form (which he sent me) and is now working
on the apparatus, using OCR plus proof-reading.  It looks hard
and I don't know the schedule, but no one should start without
coordinating with him.

Maurice Robinson intended some time back to produce conversion
tables between Tischendorf - Von Soden - Gregory sigla
for MSS, based on Gregory's Textkritik (now PD) et al.
I'm not sure how far along he is with that task.

Vincent Broman             Email: [email-masked]                    =   o     
2224 33d St.               Phone: +1 619 284 3775                  =  _ /- _   
San Diego, CA  92104-5605  Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W     =  (_)> (_)  
___ PGP protected mail preferred.  For public key finger [email-masked] ___

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From: Bart Ehrman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:01:01 -0400 (EDT)

Is there something wrong with the conversion tables in Kurt Aland, 
_Kurzgefasste Liste der Grichischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments_, 
2nd ed. 1994 (pp. 377-427)?  These indicate the equivalents of Tischendorf's
and von Soden's ms designations in Gregory numbers and, helpfully as 
well, provide a reverse conversion of Gregory to von Soden, in three 
separate tables.

-- Bart D. Ehrman, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

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From: Vincent Broman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 13:10:42 PDT

> _Kurzgefasste Liste...

Only copyright restrictions.

V Broman

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:16:53 -0400 (EDT)

> and I don't know the schedule, but no one should start without

I don't know if you have Clint's latest version, but his initial version
was so chock-full of errors that I suggested he redo from start.  I still
intend later to go over his text in light of the collation data from the
N26/27 appendix.  Until then (or until someone else checks it carefully),
I would take it as Tischendorf in less than reliable form.  

> I'm not sure how far along he is with that task.

Believe it or not, I am about 2/3 of the way complete on that lengthy
project.  Full page scanning from Gregory got most of the numbers ok,
though there still were numerous errors, and these all have to be manually
checked, and the ASCII data reformatted significantly.  I would be happy
to release the portions which are complete, but unless someone has a
pressing need for this material in incomplete form, I think it would be
best to make all available at one time.

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From: Maurice Robinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:21:09 -0400 (EDT)

> well, provide a reverse conversion of Gregory to von Soden, in three 

Absolutely nothing wrong with those, Bart, and in fact I have my own
personal electronic form of those already scanned in. *;-)  The problem is
in getting permission to post these data from the highly proprietary folk
at Muenster and/or Walter deGruyter in Berlin.  

I would definitely be pleased if in your capacity within the SBL textual
criticism seminar if you could convincingly persuade them to give
permission for free and unhindered presentation on the internet. Please
try, and it will save me a LOT of time working with the errors and
formatting of the scanned-in Gregory data.