Subject: Re: tc-list Patristic Citations

From: [email-masked] (U. Schmid)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:21:55 +0100

On Sat, 11 oct 1997, Steven Carr wrote:

>In message <v01510100b0656959546e@[192.87.136.214]>, "U. Schmid"
><[email-masked]> writes
>>On Sat, 11 oct 1997, Steven Carr wrote:
>>
>>>2nd-century patristic citations are very important.
>>>In 'The New Testament Documents - Are They Reliable?' F.F.Bruce writes
>
>>>As I am assured that you don't get to be a university professor by
>>>making unsupported assertions your stock-in-trade, I would be grateful
>>>to know how much support these assertions have.
>>
>>As I am assured that you don't get to be considered a serious student by
>>simply disrespectfully treating a reputable scholar, I would be grateful to
>>know, if you ever considered the possibility of getting hold of one of
>>Prof. Bruce's other publications on the subject.
>
>Well, of course I have, but I have yet to find where he gives the quotes
>from 1 and 2 Timothy in Polycarp, along with the others. People like
>Elaine Pagels say that Paul's letters are very little quoted until
>Irenaeus and I am just trying to find out whom to believe.
>
>I would be thankful if you could tell me if the letters of Ignatius and
>Polycarp do, or do not, cite, quote or allude to the New Testament books
>that F..F.Bruce mentioned in his book.

I suggest you also consult _B.M. Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament,
Oxford 1987_.

Concerning Polycarp and the Pastorals I may draw your attention to, e.g.:
a) Pol. 2 Phil 5.2 where you find three adjectives DIABOLOI, DILOGOI,
AFILARGYROI. Two of them only occur in the Pastorals as far as NT writings
are concerned (the exception is AFILARGYROI also occuring in Heb 13.5). The
three of them together occur in 1 Tim 3.3.8.11 (in reversed order) in
largely comparable contexts.
b) In the same Polycarp passage shortly after the mentioned adjectives you
will find expressions and thoughts resembling 2 Tim 2.11-13 (we are
promised "to rise from the dead" = SYZHSOMEN, "to rule with him as King" =
SUMBASILEYOMEN, "if we act according to his standards" = EI ARNHSOMEQA
EKEINOS ARNHSETAI HMAS).

Passages of this type are usually held to be indicative of displaying
Polycarp's knowledge of the Pastorals. You will note that these are
allusions, at best. However, if there is a considerable amount of those
identified, the cumulative evidence seems to point to literary dependency.
It may be interesting to note that H. Frh. von Campenhausen, _Polykarp und
die Pastoralbriefe (Campenhausen, Aus der Fruehzeit des Christentums,
Tuebingen 1963, pp. 197-252)_, reached the opposite conclusion as far as
literary dependency is concerned. He argues that Polycarp himself wrote the
Pastorals.

Ulrich Schmid,
Netherlands Institute for Advanced Studies

---

From: Steven Carr <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:07:57 +0100

In message <v01510100b065936d375f@[192.87.136.214]>, "U. Schmid"
<[email-masked]> writes

>literary dependency is concerned. He argues that Polycarp himself wrote the

Thanks for the useful information. I have never heard the suggestion
that Polycarp wrote the Pastorals. I'm not quite sure what to make of
it.