Subject: RE: tc-list Re: P52

From: Curt Niccum <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:03:15 -0600

I am not familiar with Thiede's specific claim. As for the secular use
of the codex, it had apparently experienced limited use before the first
century of the common era (if we understand Martial correctly). In
addition, I believe the notes of Philodemus' lectures were discovered in
codex form which would provide hard evidence of its use around the
middle of the first century. If Thiede is specifically referring to
Christian codices, then his argument rests on his untenable dating of
p64 et al.

Curt

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Jack Kilmon [SMTP:[email-masked]]
	Sent:	Wednesday, October 29, 1997 12:53 PM
	To:	[email-masked]
	Subject:	Re: tc-list Re: P52

	Robert B. Waltz wrote:

	> On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Jack Kilmon <[email-masked]> wrote:
	>
	> >List:
	> >
	> >    Are any of the earliest NT papyri opisthographs?  P52
appears
	> >to be the oldest example of a codex fragment, therefore it's
a quo
	> >date of 113 CE is the earliest date I can assign for the
practice
	> >(unless anyone knows of an earlier example).  I would be
	> >interested in some examples of the ad quo dates for both
Hebrew
	> >and Greek opisthographic papyri.
	>
	> P13 -- the most substantial papyrus not in the Beatty or
Bodmer
	> collections -- is an opisthograph. Date is listed as III/IV.
	> Text is similar to P46 and B.
	>

	    Since the text on the verso of P13 is Livy, has their been
an
	opinion
	offered as to how the papyrus was used?  A draft preliminary to
the
	making of a codex?  A singular scroll of Hebrews, reusing a
scroll
	of Livy?  Is it a true opisthograph in that the text of Hebrews
does not

	continue on the reverse?

	    I am wondering if the invention of the codex is of Christian
origin
	and may coincide with the "collation" of the Gospels and
epistles
	of Paul, perhaps in Ephesus, around the turn of the 2nd
century.....
	perhaps Ephesians being a "cover letter" for that work.

	    For the life of me, I cannot find support for Thiede's claim
that
	the Codex was in use in the mid 1st century.

	Jack

	--
	D’man dith laych idneh d’nishMA nishMA
	   Jack Kilmon ([email-masked])

	 http://users.accesscomm.net/scriptorium

---

From: Jack Kilmon <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:30:16 -0600

> Christian codices, then his argument rests on his untenable dating of

    This is interesting.  It would seem, therefore, that the codex
wasdeveloped from its "pagan" invention by Christians while the
Jewish format continued in scroll form...since the earliest Hebrew
codex, of which I am aware, is C. Cairensis (late 9th C).  The
Jewish resistance of this much more convenient format must have
been held on religious grounds.  I wonder what format old
Flavius Joe used for his autographs?

Jack

---

From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:15:33 +000

To the best of my knowledge, refs. to the use of 
codices in the lst-2nd cents (other than the indications of Christian 
appropriation of the format) signal the following:
--Use of the codex for non-literary purposes/writings, such as 
notebooks, study-copies of literary works, documentary texts, etc.
--Experimentation with the codex in a few cases for liteary works, 
with a view toward making "pocket" editions.  Martial's ref. for 
example seems to refer to the particular advantage of a codex for 
reading while en route.
Thus, the Christian innovation with the codex appears as follows:
--a MUCH more regularised/standardised appropriation/usage of the 
codex.  The % figures given by Roberts & others who have worked on 
the question are undeniable.
--a particular FAVORING of the codex for what became their 
"scriptures", both OT & NT writings.  Christian copies of other 
Christian writings survive, and a number of them are NOT in codex 
form.  The Christian favoring of the codex seems not easily accounted 
for merely as an act of convenience (e.g., to make "pocket 
editions").  It looks quite deliberate and purposeful.  Problem is 
trying to find clear indications of the purpose!

L. W. Hurtado
University of Edinburgh,
New College
Mound Place 
Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX
Phone: 0131-650-8920
Fax: 0131-650-6579
E-mail:  [email-masked]