From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Nov 2 03:00:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA23965; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:00:02 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:00:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199711020800.DAA23933@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: Jimmy Adair (tc-list-owner) Subject: tc-list Quarterly Reminder Content-Type: text Apparently-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 6863 ****************************************************************************** General Information about the List ****************************************************************************** tc-list: a discussion list of biblical textual criticism This list is loosely associated with the new electronic journal _TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism_, and it is intended for a discussion of any matters relating to biblical textual criticism, broadly defined. The rationale for the creation of the TC journal is given below. It is hoped that subscribers to the tc-list will reflect on and respond to material from articles in TC, will deal with issues that arise in the context of text-critical study in the community of biblical scholars at large, and will use the list to suggest new ideas and methodologies. Notes on any aspect of the textual criticism of the Jewish and Christian scriptures (including extracanonical and related literature) are welcome, and threads that transcend the traditional boundary between textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament and New Testament textual criticism are especially encouraged. We would also like to see threads that discuss the relationship between textual criticism and other disciplines. This list is an unmoderated list, and anyone who is a subscriber to the list may contribute. Conventional netiquette should be followed by all contributors to the list. The following points in particular should be kept in mind. (1) Discussion of topics other than textual criticism (or other topics likely to be of interest to members of the list) should be avoided. (2) Scholarly discussion can at times be somewhat heated, but civility should always prevail. (3) Contributors to the list should always sign their messages with their names (not just e-mail addresses). Additional information, such as institutional affiliation, might also be of interest to others on the list. (4) When responding to a message on the list, quote only that portion of the message that you are responding to, or enough of the message to remind readers of the context of the discussion. In many cases it is not necessary to quote the entire message. Archives of tc-list are automatically maintained, and they may be accessed by sending a message like the following to majordomo@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu: get tc-list tc-list.yymm where yy is a 2-digit year and mm is a 2-digit month (e.g., tc-list.9604 for April 1996). The first month archived is November 1995 (tc-list.9511). List archives may also be accessed on the Web at http://purl.org/TC/archives/tc-list/tc-list.html. TC messages since 28 Feb 1997 are also archived by Reference.COM at http://www.reference.com. ****************************************************************************** Subscribing, Unsubscribing, and Sending Messages to the List ****************************************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, send the appropriate message to majordomo@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (_not_ to the list itself): subscribe tc-list [your e-mail address] unsubscribe tc-list [your e-mail address] The e-mail address is optional, since subscription will default to the address you are sending from. You may also subscribe to this list in digest form (i.e., messages bundled and sent out a few times per week) by sending this message to majordomo@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu: subscribe tc-list-digest [your e-mail address] If you subscribe to the digest, be sure to unsubscribe from the list so you won't receive everything twice. To send a message to the list for all to read, send your message to tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu. Don't send to tc-list-digest, even if you're subscribed to the digest. Just send to tc-list. If you do not want to receive messages for a while (e.g., you're going on vacation or will be away from your computer for an extended time), please unsubscribe from the list. There is no "vacation" command on this list. When you want to start receiving messages again, simply subscribe to the list again. ***************************************************************************** TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism ***************************************************************************** One of the benefits of increasingly widespread Internet access is the ease with which scholars in a particular field can communicate with one another. Although the sciences have dominated the electronic journal field up until this point, several journals in the humanities are now available online. TC follows in the (brief) tradition of the Journal of Buddhist Ethics, the International Journal of Tantric Studies, and the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. As far as we are aware, TC is the first Web journal in the area of biblical studies. Why "biblical" textual criticism (rather than t-c of the NT or the Hebrew Bible/OT)? It is time for textual critics in the two camps to communicate more with one another. Textual critics in one field can only benefit by hearing what those in the other field have to say. The journal will accept papers dealing with any aspect of textual criticism of the OT/Hebrew Bible or NT, and it especially encourages "crossover" papers that deal with both areas. Papers dealing either with specific cruxes or with larger issues (methodology, use of versional evidence, etc.) are welcome. Brief notes or full-length articles are equally acceptable. Why an electronic journal? The fact of the matter is that printing a journal costs a lot of money (especially with recent increases in paper prices). In addition, it is debatable whether the field of textual criticism could generate a large enough base to support a paper journal. There are technical difficulties with displaying non-Latin characters that will have to be addressed, but some of these difficulties have already been overcome. With an electronic journal, scholars and students around the world can have free access to one or another form of the journal, either via the World Wide Web, FTP, or e-mail. TC is now in its second year of operation, and we are looking for articles. Please submit your articles in electronic form to: Jimmy Adair Scholars Press P.O. Box 15399 Atlanta, GA 30333-0399 USA You are also welcome to send articles via e-mail to jadair@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, or you may upload your articles directly to our FTP site at ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/uploads/TC. TC has a home page on TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web site (http://purl.org/TC), and interested parties can look at this page for announcements. We look forward to your participation in TC and tc-list! The list-owner of tc-list is Jimmy Adair (jadair@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu). From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Nov 3 12:37:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA16098; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:37:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:41:18 -0500 From: Jim West X-Sender: jwest@mail.highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19971103174118.0066b510@mail.highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 38 susbcribe tc-list Jim West Petros TN From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Nov 4 07:47:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA00652; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:47:07 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Mark Johnson" To: Subject: tc-list Probability and Text Types Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:50:03 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 241 Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to several? Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS? Mark Johnson From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Nov 4 08:54:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA19791; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:54:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:59:47 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Probability and Text Types Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1374 On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, "Mark Johnson" wrote: >Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the >various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to >several? > >Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS? I think we need some clarification here. What do you mean by "statistical distribution"? Measured by agreement with some particular manuscript? Or do you want to compare all manuscripts against all manuscripts? (Or, more realistically, some set against itself?) There have been studies done which use statistics -- the obvious examples being Colwell and Tune and Kurt Aland's Thousand Readings. As far as sophisticated statistical analysis of the results -- there is nothing. We don't even have an adequate definition of the methods needed. Naturally, I hope to cure that. :-) Overall, however, there hasn't been much interest. I realize this isn't much of an answer. If you'll try to state the problem more precisely, I'll try to give a better response. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Nov 4 16:52:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA28126; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:52:13 -0500 Date: 4 Nov 1997 21:56:44 -0000 Message-ID: <19971104215644.11659.qmail@np.nosc.mil> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu In-reply-to: (micah68@airmail.net) Subject: Re: tc-list Probability and Text Types From: Vincent Broman Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1188 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- micah68@airmail.net asked: > Has any statistical analysis been done to test the hypothesis that the > various text types comprise one statistical distribution as opposed to > several? Various metrics have been computed on samples for classification, but no one has computed probability distributions for those statistics, that I've heard of. > Have any statistical tests in general been performed on the Biblical MSS? People have computed interesting statistical quantities from MSS, but the tests performed seem to be always heuristic. Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work) Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF+aAWCU4mTNq7IdAQERgAP8DJEVDD9xAXXIsE1Bd2NfZAWp5Ux3h9Pa KLLXZfAg7h+i+fdDpkUX6GVO+wjkFGM40ZxFUPMRfmvjLoV77TQYyEMuxPfJBa9j X3w0zuRzkFnopnLXyhveatwN0TyGJKY8UWmW6HobKplOBqTBiqxeds3cjjlqp0nR v4Nl9Js9R8c= =6jvI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 5 11:30:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA03974; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:30:47 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:30:45 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: Francesco Quaranta cc: TC List Subject: tc-list vetus latina query Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 798 Francesco, I'm forwarding your question to the tc-list, to see if anyone there has an answer for you. Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:36:49 +0100 From: Francesco Quaranta Reply-To: Christianity in Late Antiquity Discussion Group To: Multiple recipients of list ELENCHUS Subject: vetus latina query Does anyone know a website with the text of prevulgate Latine Bible, as Vetus Latina and Roman Psalter? Thanks in advance. Francesco Quaranta. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Nov 14 11:18:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA22969; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:18:10 -0500 From: lakr Message-Id: <199711141623.IAA10384@netcom9.netcom.com> Subject: tc-list 1John 5:7 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:23:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: lakr@netcom9.netcom.com (lakr) In-Reply-To: from "Robert B. Waltz" at Nov 4, 97 07:59:47 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 329 Dear TC-er's I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.) Thanks in advance, Larry Kruper From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Nov 14 16:46:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24474; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:46:51 -0500 From: PastorCHBC@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114165217_1659074642@mrin42.mail.aol.com> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 390 Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would like your evaluation of it. Gene Hughes PastorCHBC@aol.com Wichita, Ks. 67207 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Nov 17 11:19:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA02166; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:19:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:19:57 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7 In-Reply-To: <199711141623.IAA10384@netcom9.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1530 On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, lakr wrote: > I remember a discussion awhile back on the issues surrounding > 1 John 5:7 on this list, but a search for that verse in > the archives came up with no matches. Does anyone know > if that discussion is still active in the archive (the one > on www.reference.com only goes back to July 97.) The tc-list archives are now also available in a very usable format at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. The archive currently goes back to December 1996, but I hope that earlier archives will soon be available there as well. In the meantime, remember that you can request specific months from the majordomo archive by sending the message "get tc-list tc-list.yymm" (where yymm is year and month, e.g., tc-list.9604) to majordomo@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu. For those who would like to download and search the entire archive, I've made it available at ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list (the archive is complete through the end of October). The files at this ftp site will be updated monthly. My search of the archives (searching for "John 5:7" and "Jn 5:7" then omitting references to the gospel [to account for 1 John 5:7, 1John 5:7, I John 5:7, etc.]) found the verse mentioned in tc-list.9601, tc-list.9608, tc-list.9706, and tc-list.9709. Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Nov 18 15:01:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA08428; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:01:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:01:03 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: archives of tc-list on Web: update Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 756 All of the tc-list archives back to November 1995 are now available on the Web at http://findmail.com/listsaver/tc-list. Messages can be sorted by author, thread, date, or subject, and a search feature is also available. I think that having the archives on the Web will be very convenient for people on the list (and others) interested in what we've discussed. Remember, too, that the archives can be downloaded from our ftp site (ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list) and searched on your local machine. Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Nov 22 00:07:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA21171; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:07:59 -0500 Message-Id: From: "Mark Johnson" To: Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:12:31 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1100 The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue that the direct tradition ( greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues against providential preservation. The authour makes much of the fact that the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or theologically. Mark Johnson ------------------------------ From: PastorCHBC@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7 Larry, I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I would like your evaluation of it. Gene Hughes PastorCHBC@aol.com Wichita, Ks. 67207 ------------------------------ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Nov 22 13:55:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA22231; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:55:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:00:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Ronald L. Minton" X-Sender: rminton@orionc0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu cc: PastorCHBC@aol.com Subject: Re: tc-list 1John 5:7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1331 On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mark Johnson wrote: > The main arguments made in this book are appeals to the indirect tradition > ( Old Syriac, Old Latin and Latin patristic sources, among others ) and > providential preservation. The problem with this approach is that to argue > that the direct tradition ( Greek MSS ) has become badly corrupt argues > against providential preservation. The author makes much of the fact that > the Textus Receptus contains it, but not all editions of the TR do. In > short, the Johannine Comma has little to recommend it, either textually or > theologically. > From: PastorCHBC@aol.com > Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:18 -0500 (EST) > I am a lurker on this list and also pastor of the Colonial Heights Baptist > Church in Wichita, Ks. I have just recently read --A History of the Debate > Over I John 5:7-8 by Michael Maynard published by Comma Publications. P. > O. Box 1625, Temple Az. 85281-1625. I you have access to this book I > would like your evaluation of it. > Gene Hughes On page 352, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear quote in Cyprian. Can anyone shed light on early church fathers and the comma? -- Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@mail.orion.org W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581 Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 26 13:59:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA03127; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:59:21 -0500 Date: 26 Nov 1997 19:04:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19971126190432.5883.qmail@np.nosc.mil> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Latin Vulgate Bible From: Vincent Broman Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1581 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- There is an electronic transcription of the Vulgate Bible available on the Internet in lots of places, such as the OBI, with no provenance mentioned. I've compared the text at the beginning of Mark against the apparatus of the Nestle-Aland Nova Vulgata and concluded that it seems to be the Stuttgart 1975 Vulgate. The accuracy seems to be pretty good, i.e. it wasn't a quick scanning hatchet job. The differences from the Nova Vulgata with apparatus seemed to be orthographical, stuff that is not expected to be reflected in its apparatus anyway. Has anyone seen any Latin bibles in electronic form not derived from this transcription? A question about Latin Vulgate orthography.... In the 4th/5th century of Jerome, did Latin distinguish U/V and I/J already? I know that they are classically the same, and that later in the middle ages V and B are confused, indicating V had become a consonant. But when did these changes occur? Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work) Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNHxyUGCU4mTNq7IdAQGM6AP+JOu3H/fZmGmTM0MHz3WwB5bgv9GKZXi/ 3bM5L08pNI/VBzq28ydF+azIKZ63kmFru65mSV4bOWf88qDx2xTSOU5PDmzu1s8n SbiGRrWgWNe2LiK0JsGW16ET+ZyG4FzejSj2tocQBIr4dSMG8V+2RtwLwalXMhOr uIA3kCd15tY= =Q/Pm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 26 18:31:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA04059; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:31:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:36:42 -0600 (CST) From: "Ronald L. Minton" X-Sender: rminton@orionc0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 376 On page 352 of _A History of the Debate Over I John 5:7, Maynard claims the comma is quoted by Cyprian. I could not find a clear case of this in Cyprian. Can anyone help me identify who was the first to really quote the comma? -- Prof. Ron Minton: rminton@mail.orion.org W (417)268-6053 H 833-9581 Baptist Bible Graduate School 628 E. Kearney St. Springfield, MO 65803 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 26 19:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA04253; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:03:30 -0500 Date: 27 Nov 1997 00:09:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19971127000905.6386.qmail@np.nosc.mil> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list ENTMP transcription of Freer Gospels Matthew From: Vincent Broman Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1443 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- My transcription of the book of Matthew from the Freer Gospels (W) for the Electronic NT MS Project has been updated and is more-or-less finished, although more comparison with Sanders' facsimile would still help. Under http://www.znet.com/~broman/manuscripts.html you can find the basic SGML/TEI format transcription and a slightly interesting Postscript Uncial rendition of the first hand's text. All hands are recorded and both regularized and original spellings are given. Extensive checking against secondary sources (and a lesser amount from the facsimile) was done. I believe this is the largest hunk of MS publically available so far from the ENTMP, although the Hebrews transcriptions will dwarf it someday. My next will likely be from John and will probably come from W, Pi, or 0211. Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work) Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W === PGP protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNHy57WCU4mTNq7IdAQGNZAQAsvZVDqFXHxeEW8TreLBWFxfzhJvcBtqi PIUDJle+wfMQ48YMtit58EwXWDtjP8C3DZ6h8+m+XmJHYLqS7F5jObW+zhwhRBGl bP8IfRco9jh+048vYfR1r5ZQbqSsiX7gEUeboxz1+ZcCCro+Ov/cYE051WfO6Puu 6k+x9hILFRs= =NHLl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 26 19:35:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA04345; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:35:59 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971127003505.006a6510@utc.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:35:05 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 Cc: rminton@mail.orion.org Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 801 Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column. Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787 Hope this helps Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Nov 26 23:56:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04778; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:56:41 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971127000214.34cfe2ca@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: scarlson@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:02:14 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Stephen C. Carlson" Subject: Re: tc-list Latin Vulgate Bible In-Reply-To: <19971126190432.5883.qmail@np.nosc.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2380 At 07:04 11/26/97 -0000, Vincent Broman wrote: >A question about Latin Vulgate orthography.... >In the 4th/5th century of Jerome, did Latin distinguish U/V and I/J already? >I know that they are classically the same, and that later in the >middle ages V and B are confused, indicating V had become a consonant. >But when did these changes occur? Orthography and pronunciation are two separate issues, and I will address the latter first. A good source for classical Latin pronunication is W. Sidney Allen, VOX LATINA (Cambridge: U.P., 1965) (2d ed. 1978). On page 41, Allen explains that the evidence in the 1st cen. B.C. clearly shows that Latin 'v' was pronounced as a [w]. However, starting the 1st cen. A.D., 'v' and 'b' were sporadically confused in inscriptions, and by the 2d cen. A.D. Velius Longus clearly referred to friction in the sound, indicating a [v] or more probably a [B] sound ([B] as in Spanish 'lavar' [laBar]). The [w] sound for 'v' appears to have lasted in a few isolated quarters until the 5th cen. A.D. As for I/J, Allen, p.38, only says that the change from the semi-vowel "y" sound to an affricative "j" sound is "very late" and indeed has not yet occurred in all places, e.g. Spanish "yace" from Latin "iacet." I can only infer from this statement that Jerome probably said a "y" sound. According to Allen, the orthographic distinction between the consonants j, v and vowels i, u is relatively recent, i.e. no earlier than the 15th cen., since the medievel usage was for j, v to be used in word-initial position and i, u in other places. The vowel/consonant orthographic distinction can be traced to a suggestion by Leonbattista Alberti in 1465 and adopted into Spanish in 1492 and Latin in 1559, followed shortly by the French. I am personally aware that 'j' in Italian is used variously for foreign words, certain dialectal words (e.g. Romanesque "ajo" ['y' sound] = Std.It. "aglio" garlic), and as a old-style abbreviation for a final '-ii'. In summary, for the Vulgate, I/J and U/V were not orthographically distinct, yet consonantal I/J was probably pronounced as a "y" and consonantal U/V as a (Spanish) "v". Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, scarlson@mindspring.com : and songs chant the words. http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : -- Shujing 2.35 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Nov 27 11:42:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05808; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:42:48 -0500 From: STORYBROWN@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:48:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971127114828_1794314029@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: Re: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 177 In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: <> Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? Guy Story Brown, Dallas storybrown@aol.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Nov 27 12:06:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA05876; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:06:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:11:09 -0500 From: Jim West Subject: Re: Re: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 X-Sender: jwest@highland.net (Unverified) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19971127171109.0066389c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 427 At 11:48 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > >In a message dated 11/27/97 10.33.07 am, you wrote: > ><> > >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? > >Guy Story Brown, Dallas >storybrown@aol.com > > here http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/christian-history.html jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Nov 27 13:02:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA05967; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:02:26 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:04:36 -0600 Subject: Re: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 Message-ID: <19971127.100440.9862.2.jeffcate@juno.com> References: <971127114828_1794314029@mrin44.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14 From: jeffcate@juno.com (James J. Cate) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 241 ><> > >Is this available on line anywhere, do you know? > >Guy Story Brown, Dallas >storybrown@aol.com > At: http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers/ Jeff Cate Assoc. Prof. of Christian Studies California Baptist College From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Nov 27 14:52:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06120; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:52:06 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971127194929.0068ac5c@utc.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:49:29 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list Cyprian and 1 John 5:7 Cc: rminton@mail.orion.org Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2210 Ron: I found the Cyprian quote in the Ante-Nicene Fathers under Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise 1 "On the Unity of the Church" section 6. In my copy of the Ante Nicene Fathers this Volume 5 page 423, bottom of left-hand column. Incidentally, IMHO the best discussion of the comma is by Father Raymond Brown in his Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine Epistles pages 775-787 Chapter 6 The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home, with chaste modesty she guards the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God; she assigns the children whom she has created to the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined with an adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he who has abandoned the Church arrive at the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He cannot have God as a father who does not have the Church as a mother. If whoever was outside the ark of Noe was able to escape, he too who is outside. the Church escapes. The Lord warns, saying: 'He who is not with me is against me, and who does not gather with me, scatters.' He who breaks the peace and concord of Christ acts against Christ; he who gathers somewhere outside the Church scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says: 'I and the Father are one.' And again of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: 'And these three are one.' Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation. Hope this helps Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Nov 27 16:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA06352; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:26:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:32:03 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Rolf Furuli Subject: tc-list 1. Enoch, date of Greek text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 488 Dear list-members, My question relates particularly to "Fragments of the Book of Noah" (chapters 6-11) or "The Book of Watchers" (Milik`s term) (chapters 1-36). What is the age of the Greek Cairo papyrus 10759? (I do not at present have access to M.Black, 1970, "Apocalypsis Henochi Graece" where a date may be found). Are there other older Greek manuscripts? What are the conjectures as to when this part of 1 Enoch was translated into Greek? Regards Rolf Furuli University of Oslo From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Nov 29 18:16:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA12091; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:16:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199711292312.AAA19934@mail1.arcadis.be> Subject: Re: tc-list ENTMP transcription of Freer Gospels Matthew Date: Dim, 30 Nov 97 00:25:53 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@mail.arcadis.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean VALENTIN To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 980 >My transcription of the book of Matthew from the Freer Gospels (W) >for the Electronic NT MS Project has been updated and is more-or-less >finished, >although more comparison with Sanders' facsimile would still help. >Under http://www.znet.com/~broman/manuscripts.html you can find the basic >SGML/TEI format transcription and a slightly interesting Postscript >Uncial rendition of the first hand's text. Vincent, I don't know what this SGML/TEI norm is. Are such documents readable on a Macintosh and how? Thank you for your help. Jean V. _________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail: jgvalentin@arcadis.be _________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop complexe est inutilisable" "What's too simple is wrong, what's too complex is unusable" "Wat te eenvoudig is, is verkeerd; wat te ingewikkeld is, is onbruikbaar" _________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Nov 30 23:54:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA14627; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:54:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:54:52 -0500 From: ab5q To: Message-Id: <19943672.886214@relay.comanche.denmark.eu> Tuesday, December 2nd, 1997 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3277 Authenticated sender is Subject: December Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EMAIL MARKETING WORKS!!! It's quick and effective!! Mass email and targeted email marketing works! With our special program we not only provide you with up to 30 MILLION email addresses, we also provide you with a terrific mass emailing software FREE. Imagine reaching 30 MILLION people! With regular advertising it would cost you in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even if your response rate was 1 out of 20 thousand you would have many prospects right now. If you are getting this message by email then you do not need any additional hardware or software. We also have TARGETED email software providing you TARGETED email lists! Our Easy Email Business Package includes: 1) 20 or 30 MILLION email addresses 2)Special Mass Email Software that allows you to send upwards of 20 to 100 thousand ads per hour(depending upon ad length, system, traffic etc.) 3) Instruction Guide 4) How to Automate your mailings 5) How to write an effective email-ad...with samples 6) A list of "Friendly" internet service providers that allow you to send mass-email on their systems 7) How to avoid Flames 8) Pages of "HOT" products to sell now...if you do not already have one :) 9) How To Guide... Operate Your Own On-Line Business Part-Time 10) The 10 Secrets Bulk-Emailers do not want you to know 11) Many other valuable tips and tools We cannot promise you success, but we know because WE DO IT, that if you EMAIL consistently, the process works. It' as simple as that... and it pays for itself with just a few orders. Also, If you need targeted email lists call us for information about our NEW Bull's Eye Gold software!! Bull's Eye Gold allows you to AUTOMATICALLY collect targeted email lists using ANY search criteria! CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION!!! (213) 980-7850 CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION!!! (213) 980-7850 -------------------ORDERING INFORMATION------------------- Customer Name... Address City State Zip Phone Fax Email Address Please Check Below: _________ EASY EMAIL BUSINESS PACKAGE for just $259.00 Includes 20 million email addresses on CD, FREE bulk email software, instructions and technical support _________ MEGA-EASY EMAIL PACKAGE for just $359.00 Includes 30 Million email addresses on CD, FREE bulk email software, instructions and technical support _________ Bull's Eye Gold Software for just $259.00 Includes automated email target marketing software on CD or disks, instructions and technical support _________ Shipping & Handling (2-3 Day FedEx) $10.00 (FedEx Overnite) $20.00 __________ TOTAL (CA Residents add applicable sales tax) ******** CREDIT CARDS ACCEPTED ******** MASTERCARD - VISA - AMEX PLEASE CALL 213-980-7850 to process your order 8:00 am - 5:00 p.m. Pacific Time Ckecks or Money Orders send to: WorldTouch Network, Inc. 5670 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2170 Los Angeles, CA 90036 If you have questions...please call Customer Service at (213)980-7850.