From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Jun 5 00:26:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA01828; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:26:09 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list SEPTUAGINT PRIZE (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1714 There might be some on this list who are interested in the following message. Jimmy Adair, Listowner, TC-List Manager of Information Technology Services, Scholars Press and Managing Editor of TELA, the Scholars Press World Wide Web Site -------------> http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu <-------------- Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:34:38 -0400 > From: "Benjamin G. Wright" > Subject: SEPTUAGINT PRIZE > > Please note the following announcement. If you have students or colleagues > who have done outstanding work in LXX, please pass this along to them. > > Ben Wright > Lehigh University > > ANNOUNCEMENT OF PRIZE FOR OUTSTANDING PAPER IN SEPTUAGINT STUDIES > > The International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies is offering an > annual prize of $250 to be awarded for an outstanding paper in the field of > Septuagint Studies. This field is construed broadly, and a paper may focus on > any aspect of the study of the Greek translations of the Jewish Scriptures. The > IOSCS wants to encourage the study of these translations by younger scholars, > and eligibility is thus limited to advanced graduate students or recent Ph.D. > recipients (3 years or less after receiving the degree). The papers will be > judged by a committee constituted of IOSCS members, and papers receiving prizes > will be published in an appropriate form in the following Bulletin of the IOSCS. > The committee reserves the right not to award the prize in any given year. The > deadline for submission is August 31, 1998 and should be sent to Benjamin G. > Wright, Department of Religion Studies, Maginnes Hall, 9 W. Packer Ave., Lehigh > University, Bethlehem, PA 18015. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 15:26:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA06993; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:26:39 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980606142303.0071c95c@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 14:23:03 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list BAS Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1231 All, The Biblical Archaeology Society (publishers of BAR) have recently set up a BAS website at: The Biblical Archaeology Society http://www.bib-arch.org/index.html Also for those interested in the Jewish origins of Christianity you may want to check ot the website and listservers at: The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism http://www.nazarene.net James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 16:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA07102; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:13:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980606150936.00715090@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 15:09:36 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list P52 a Western Text In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980606142303.0071c95c@postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1777 All, Reagarding P52: I could find no peculiar text type variants that would qualify p52 as a single text type until I came across John 18:33a: There is a transposition of words that is peculiar only to the Western text as follows: 1) "Entered then into the praetorium again Pilate" - aleph,A,C2,Mj. vs. 2) "Entered then again into the praetorium Pilate" - p52,B,C,D,Latin This is the text of P52 recto with the script that survives bracketed. Recto: It is not lawful to put to death rd of Jesus might be fulfilled; Which he spoke by what death He was about to therefore into the Praet again

ilate and called Whereas the Syriac omits the word "again" altogether. Now this shows that the oldest text of the N.T. dated from 100 C.E. belongs to the Western text family. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 16:33:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA07135; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:33:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:26:41 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list P52 a Western Text X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980606202641.00672afc@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 645 At 03:09 PM 6/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > > All, > > Reagarding P52: > > [snipped] > Now this shows that the oldest text of the N.T. dated from 100 C.E. belongs > to the Western text family. > > I disagree. I think this merely demonstrates that at this point the western textual tradition has actually retained a better (alexandrian) reading. What your example shows is not that the western text is superior; only that it, too, can get it right every now and again. > > >James Trimm Best, Jim ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Adjunct Professor of Bible Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 16:41:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA07165; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:41:29 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980606150936.00715090@postoffice.swbell.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980606142303.0071c95c@postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:43:11 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list P52 a Western Text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2735 On Sat, 06 Jun 1998, James Trimm wrote: [ ... ] > There is a transposition of words that is peculiar only to the Western text > as follows: > > 1) "Entered then into the praetorium again Pilate" - aleph,A,C2,Mj. > > vs. > > 2) "Entered then again into the praetorium Pilate" - p52,B,C,D,Latin >This is the text of P52 recto with the script that survives bracketed. > > Recto: It is not lawful to put to death > rd of Jesus might be fulfilled; > Which he spoke by what death > He was about to therefore into the > Praet again

ilate and called > > > Whereas the Syriac omits the word "again" altogether. > > Now this shows that the oldest text of the N.T. dated from 100 C.E. belongs > to the Western text family. I must firmly disagree. First, I can't see that it's a "Western" reading; it's "Western" and Alexandrian (Alexandrian witnesses supporting the reading, according to SQE, include P66-vid, B, C*, L, W, and 579). It also has "Caesarean" support from f13. And D here is a supplement. So there is no reason to conclude that this is a "Western" reading. But ignore that. Suppose that the thesis were true, and this reading had solely "Western" support. I still say it means nothing. One reading means *nothing.* NOTHING. It's not a statistically significant sample. This is especially true since variations in word order often arose by accident (a scribe left out a word, wrote it in the margin, and inserted it in the wrong place). I'm not saying P52 is not "Western." It may be; we cannot tell. I'm simply saying this piece of data does not let us draw any conclusions. The analogy I always use is to political polling. Suppose you went out into the street, and asked *one* person at random whom he would vote for for President. What are the odds that that person will win? At best, only about 55%. And if you ask that same person on the street about several issues, the chances that you'll get the correct answer on every question falls to near zero. One reading is not a significant sample. Ten readings are not a significant sample. A hundred readings might be -- but even then, one must allow an adequate margin for error. And I'd better stop there, before i go off in high dudgeon about the disgraceful lack of understanding of mathematics and sampling shown by textual critics.... -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 17:55:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA07292; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:55:41 -0400 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 18:04:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199806062204.SAA24685@server1.netpath.net> X-Sender: rlmullen@server1.netpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Roderic L. Mullen" Subject: Re: tc-list P52 a Western Text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2104 I'll grant you that D + latin is a strong witness to the "Western" text, but with B and C also showing up in the list of witnesses, I don't see how you can claim that the inclusion of "again" is is exclusively "Western." --Rod Mullen At 03:09 PM 6/6/98 -0500, you wrote: > > All, > > Reagarding P52: > > I could find no peculiar text type variants that would qualify p52 as a > single text type until I came across John 18:33a: > > There is a transposition of words that is peculiar only to the Western text > as follows: > > 1) "Entered then into the praetorium again Pilate" - aleph,A,C2,Mj. > > vs. > > 2) "Entered then again into the praetorium Pilate" - p52,B,C,D,Latin >This is the text of P52 recto with the script that survives bracketed. > > Recto: It is not lawful to put to death > rd of Jesus might be fulfilled; > Which he spoke by what death > He was about to therefore into the > Praet again

ilate and called > > > Whereas the Syriac omits the word "again" altogether. > > Now this shows that the oldest text of the N.T. dated from 100 C.E. belongs > to the Western text family. > > > > >James Trimm >============================================== >He who seeks will not cease until he finds, >and having found he will be amazed, >and having been amazed he will reign, >and having reigned he will rest. > - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews >============================================== >The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: >http://www.nazarene.net >============================================== >E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; >Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the >New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: >http://www.nazarene.net >============================================== >Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian >transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 6 19:15:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA07442; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:15:25 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980606181148.00738460@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 18:11:48 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Is. 3:10 & the Nazarene Text Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2262 All, According to Eusebius Eccl. Hist. 2:23 the Nazarenes saw the death of Ya'akov HaTzadik (James the Just) as having been foretold of in the following passage from Isaiah: Let us take away the just, because he is offensive to us; wherefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings. (Is. 3:10) The Nazarene version seems to have read: Let us take away the just, because he is offensive to us; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. (Is. 3:10) Now the Masoretic text has: Say to the just that [it shall be] well [with them], for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. The Peshitta agrees with that reading. The LXX has: Woe to their soul, for they have devised an evil counsel against themselves, saying against themselves, Let us bind the just, for he is burdensome to us therefore shall they eat the fruits of their works. MT: say alef- mem -resh-vav LXX: bind alef-samek-vav-resh Nazarene: take away chet-samek-vav-resh This proves that the Nazarenes used a text of Isaiah which (at least here) followed the LXX more closely than the MT, but which this variant proves was actually a HEBREW text which agreed with the LXX. Any thoughts on which readings are most original in this verse? James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 10 08:36:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA19878; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:36:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199806101236.IAA19873@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Steve & Jules Carson-Rowland" To: "Textual List" Subject: tc-list Earliest Hebrew text Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:36:11 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 496 In 'The Cambridge History of the Bible: From Beginnings to Jerome' the section on the OT text implies, but does not state outright, that the earliest manuscript evidence for the OT text is from the early 3rd century BC. Recently I saw a discussion where someone claimed the following: 'In 1986, archaeologists found the earliest known text of the Bible, dated to about 600 B.C'. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is the case and give some more details. Thanks, Steve Carson-Rowland From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 10 09:14:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA19980; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:14:23 -0400 Message-ID: <6490C9C9F7B6D11195E50000F803CA9F061B77@esusa.esusa.org> From: Curt Niccum To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list Earliest Hebrew text Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:13:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1148 I assume that the reference is to two small silver rolls containing forms of the Priestly Benediction from Numbers 6. These were discovered in 1979 in Jerusalem at Ketef Hinnom. See E. Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, p. 118, for a brief description or, for a fuller account, G. Barkay, "The Priestly Benediction on the Ketef Hinnom Plaques," Cathedra 52 (1989) 37-76. The latter, unfortunately, is available only in Hebrew. Curt Niccum -----Original Message----- From: Steve & Jules Carson-Rowland [SMTP:kirra@powerup.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 7:36 AM To: Textual List Subject: tc-list Earliest Hebrew text In 'The Cambridge History of the Bible: From Beginnings to Jerome' the section on the OT text implies, but does not state outright, that the earliest manuscript evidence for the OT text is from the early 3rd century BC. Recently I saw a discussion where someone claimed the following: 'In 1986, archaeologists found the earliest known text of the Bible, dated to about 600 B.C'. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is the case and give some more details. Thanks, Steve Carson-Rowland From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 10 10:15:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA20199; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:15:37 -0400 Message-ID: <357E9852.5BF9B518@historian.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:29:38 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Earliest Hebrew text References: <199806101236.IAA19873@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1115 Steve & Jules Carson-Rowland wrote: > In 'The Cambridge History of the Bible: From Beginnings to Jerome' the > section on the OT text implies, but does not state outright, that the > earliest manuscript evidence for the OT text is from the early 3rd century > BC. > > Recently I saw a discussion where someone claimed the following: > 'In 1986, archaeologists found the earliest known text of the Bible, dated > to about 600 B.C'. > > Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is the case and give some more > details. This is in reference to the Silver Talisman that was found at that time. The silver sheet is inscribed with the priestly blessing found at Number 6:24-26 and is dated c. 700 BCE. There is some question by some scholars, based on the textual variance, whether this is from the Tanakh and that it is just as likely the Priestly Blessing which could have been LATER included in similar form in Numbers. The best stance that I can take is that it is the oldest textual account of a traditional blessing that is also found in the Tanakh. Jack jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 10 18:30:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA22053; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:30:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:40:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199806102240.SAA15477@server1.netpath.net> X-Sender: rlmullen@server1.netpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Roderic L. Mullen" Subject: Re: tc-list Earliest Hebrew text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 775 My guess is that the text from ca.600 b.c.e. that was referred to may be the silver amulets discoverd by Gabriel Barkay with an inscription of the priestly benediction "May the Lord bless you and keep you..." --Rod Mullen At 10:36 PM 6/10/98 +1000, you wrote: >In 'The Cambridge History of the Bible: From Beginnings to Jerome' the >section on the OT text implies, but does not state outright, that the >earliest manuscript evidence for the OT text is from the early 3rd century >BC. > >Recently I saw a discussion where someone claimed the following: >'In 1986, archaeologists found the earliest known text of the Bible, dated >to about 600 B.C'. > >Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is the case and give some more >details. > >Thanks, >Steve Carson-Rowland > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 10 21:16:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA22397; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:16:43 -0400 Message-ID: <357F4B5B.726A@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:13:31 -0700 From: Harry Staiti Organization: Ebernorby Resources X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Mark: Lord's Supper References: <199806101236.IAA19873@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> <357E9852.5BF9B518@historian.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1385 I noticed something interesting in the structure of Mark's Last Supper which corrolates with his two feedings: First, here are the actions customary for a host of a Jewish meal. ------------------- Notice this structure in Mark's Last Supper Mark 14.22-24 And as they were eating, he bread, and and it, and it to them, and said, "Take; <> my body." And he a cup, and when he had he it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, <<"This is>> my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. ========= This is familiar language of the two feedings: Mark 6.41-42 And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and and the loaves, and them to the disciples to set before the people; and he divided the two fish among them all. And they all ate and were satisfied. ======== Mark 8.6 And he commanded the crowd to sit down on the ground; and he the seven loaves, and having thanks he them and them to his disciples to set before the people; and they set them before the crowd. Any ideas? Anyone notice Luke's emphasis seems different? -- Harry (hstaiti@airmail.net) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/3013 (UPDATED) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Jun 11 09:34:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA23898; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:34:17 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <357F4B5B.726A@airmail.net> References: <199806101236.IAA19873@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> <357E9852.5BF9B518@historian.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:29:40 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Mark: Lord's Supper Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1796 On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Harry Staiti wrote: >I noticed something interesting in the structure of Mark's Last Supper >which corrolates with his two feedings: [ ... ] >Any ideas? Anyone notice Luke's emphasis seems different? That last statement is a little unclear (you didn't say whether you are referring to Luke's account of the Feeding or the Last Supper). But I'm going to *apply* it to the Last Supper, as otherwise there is no question of the text, only its interpretation. And this list is devoted to textual questions. (And thank -whatever- for that; if it were devoted to interpretation, I'd be spending even more of my life arguing about evidence versus faith. :-) We need to answer a question first, though. That has to do with the "Western Non-Interpolation" in Luke 22:17-20. Do you use the longer or the shorter text here? Because the emphasis in the account is very different based on which one you choose. The other textual question is in 22:16. Does Jesus say he "will not eat" the Passover, or he "will not eat [it] again"? Most of the best texts read the former. Personally, I think this is a very strong clue. Since Luke is consulting Mark's account, in which this was the Passover, this statement can only come from Luke's other source. It would appear that this other source agrees with John that the Last Supper took place *before* the Passover. And Luke is conflating the sources. So, yes, I'd expect a different emphasis. :-) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Jun 15 15:51:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA00380; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:51:58 -0400 Message-ID: <35857B31.CB7E2854@inetport.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:51:13 -0500 From: Burkenstock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 i86pc) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Mark: Lord's Supper References: <199806101236.IAA19873@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> <357E9852.5BF9B518@historian.net> <357F4B5B.726A@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 594 Harry Staiti wrote: > > > Any ideas? Anyone notice Luke's emphasis seems different? The Didache follows the Lucan Eucharist. I don't have mine in my hand at the moment. You should check that out for some more comparison. Burke -- Burke Gerstenschlager orpheus@inetport.com http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~charis (under construction) "I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use - silence, exile, and cunning." - Stephen Dedalus _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Jun 15 18:35:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA01158; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:35:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199806152232.SAA04312@jazz.maestro.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Franz Schredl" Organization: WTBS Research To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:37:06 -0500 Subject: tc-list How to contact Anne-Marie Guesny Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 328 Hi, I had heard that Weil prepared a list of Hebrew/Aramaic MSS of the OT. He could have been last at the Univ of Lyons. Probably his widow should have more information (Anne-Marie Guesny, I believe is her name) but I don't know how and where to contact her. Would anyone be in a position to give me any lead? Thanks, Franz From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 17 11:35:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA14502; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:35:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:34:22 -0400 From: "Harold P. Scanlin" Subject: tc-list How to contact Anne-Marie Guesny To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199806171134_MC2-407B-4935@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1271 I do not have any contact information for Weil's widow, but it may be wor= th checking with several people who worked closely with Weil. They are: M. Serfaty, who is at Paris VI (or U. Nancy 2 et Pierre et Marie Curie) Philippe Cassuto, Universite de Provence at Aix-en-Provence I may be able to find email addresses. Please contact me offlist. I do not know what your specific interests are, but the following resourc= es may prove helpful. The introductions to the published volumes of Critiqu= e textuelle de l'Ancien Testament by D. Barthelemy, especially Vol. 3, contain a great deal of information on biblical Hebrew MSS. An English edition of these introductions will be published (by Eisenbrauns/UBS) in about a year. The Institut de Recherche et d'Histoire des Textes, CNRS Paris, in cooperation with the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities has undertaken an extensive catalog of Hebrew manuscripts. The first volume,= covering MSS written up to 1020 CE was just published by Brepols. You ma= y have to sell your house if you want to buy the entire series, but major research libraries with a Judaica specialty will probably be a good sourc= e. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Jun 17 12:24:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA14986; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:24:37 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Amy Anderson" Organization: Fac of Arts:The Univ. of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:20:17 GMT Subject: tc-list Looking for Lakes Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199806171134_MC2-407B-4935@compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 547 I am interested in locating any archival material of Kirsopp and/or Silva Lake (also published as Silva New). One lead I am already following up is the possibility that there are archives for him/them at Harvard's Pusey Library. I have a normal address for the library but not an email address. If someone can give me any hints and/or information I would greatly appreciate it. Amy Anderson 45 Bournville Lane Stirchley Birmingham B30 2LP UK 0121/459 1562 email: If the address in Reply To does not work, try a.s.anderson@bham.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Jun 19 16:58:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24262; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:58:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:58:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list review article in TC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1209 William Petersen has written a review article that discusses George Howard's _Hebrew Gospel of Matthew_ in quite a bit of detail. This article is now available in TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism volume 3. Here's the abstract: ******* George Howard's Hebrew Gospel of Matthew deals with an interesting medieval New Testament version which Howard claims has roots in the first or second century. While Howard's edition of the text (extracted from Shem-Tob's Even Bohan) provides scholars with access to a valuable New Testament witness, as well as a serviceable translation into English, his novel theory concerning the ancient origins of the translation are suspect, particularly in light of comparisons with the Western Diatessaronic tradition. ******* Members of this list are invited to read the review and offer comments on the list. As always, let me remind you that TC welcomes submissions of articles on any aspect of biblical textual criticism. I'll be glad to answer any question that readers of the list may have about possible submissions. Jimmy Adair General Editor of TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism -------------------> http://purl.org/TC <-------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Jun 25 15:29:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA12798; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:29:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199806251929.MAA00416@smtp.northlink.com> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:24:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list 2 Sam 18:29 Priority: normal Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 742 In 2 Sam 18:29, David asks "Is it well with the boy, with Absalom?" The problem is, there's no interrogative-he in the sentence. BHS indicates that several manuscripts "Sebir" this passage to include it. After re-reading Wurthwein, I understand what Sebir means (I think), basically indicating that this is an anomaly and showing what the "regular" form is. My question: Is there any ms. evidence for the reading with the interrogative-he, or is this just an unusual form? What sorts of text-critical conclusions have been drawn about this clause? Any info would be helpful. Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions and polysyllabic verbiages. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Jun 25 17:16:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13345; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:16:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199806252111.RAA18128@jazz.maestro.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Franz Schredl" Organization: WTBS Research To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:16:07 -0500 Subject: Re: tc-list 2 Sam 18:29 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199806251929.MAA00416@smtp.northlink.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 530 Hi, Good question. I've just looked at it and it literally is, comparing with verses 28 and 32, "Peace!", "It is well!" Cheers! Franz > In 2 Sam 18:29, David asks "Is it well with the boy, with Absalom?" > The problem is, there's no interrogative-he in the sentence. BHS > indicates that several manuscripts "Sebir" this passage to include > it. After re-reading Wurthwein, I understand what Sebir means (I > think), basically indicating that this is an anomaly and showing what > the "regular" form is. My question: From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 27 06:16:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA18425; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 06:16:08 -0400 X-Sender: teopgo@strix.its.uu.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:14:08 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Pedro.Goncalves@teol.uu.se (Pedro Goncalves) Subject: Re: tc-list (2 Sam 18:29): Sevirin Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1684 Dave Washburn wrote: >In 2 Sam 18:29, David asks "Is it well with the boy, with Absalom?" >The problem is, there's no interrogative-he in the sentence. BHS >indicates that several manuscripts "Sebir" this passage to include >it. After re-reading Wurthwein, I understand what Sebir means (I >think), basically indicating that this is an anomaly and showing what >the "regular" form is. [...] __________________ The nature of the Sevirin notes vis-=E0-vis the Kethiv/Qere ones is somethin= g that have been puzzling me for a while so I thank Dave for taking it up (albeit indirectly). As far as I have come to understand it one should understand the Sevirin notes as meaning ''(some) suppose/think (that one should read) so-and-so but err (in doing so)''. Often the part ''but err'' is left unwritten but it occurs in the masoretic notes of some manuscripts. It would seem then that whereas the Kethiv/Qere readings represent acknowledged variants in the consonantal tradition or cases of accepted deviations in the oral tradition from the written one, the Sevirin represent readings that according to (one) masoretic tradition have no grounds in the received tradition. Often Sevirin will be as in 2Sam 18:29 prompted by a feature in the text which may invite a ''correction''. Such most unwelcome ''corrections'' the Sevirin wish to eliminate or preempt. As to the latter, it seems to me that a Sevirin reading in some cases may have never occurred in any manuscript but functions just as a caveat to the reader/scribe to watch out his step. I would welcome any comments/corrections to this understanding of Sevirin. Pedro Axelsson Gon=E7alves Uppsala University From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Jun 27 11:02:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA18731; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:02:01 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980627160013.007c65c0@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:00:13 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: Re: tc-list (2 Sam 18:29): Sevirin Cc: Pedro.Goncalves@teol.uu.se In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1567 At 12:14 27/06/98 +0100, you wrote: >I would welcome any comments/corrections to this understanding of Sevirin. Pedro: You -- and others dealing with this question -- might like to know there is an an excellent new publication: "The Masorah of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia: Introduction and Annotated Glossary " by Kelley, Mynatt, and Crawford ( Eerdmans 1998) ISBN 0-8028-4363-8 There are four good chapters in the Introduction, but the real meat is in the Glossary. Turning to samek-beth-yod-resh, I found this definition: ************* Abbreviation for ......... [Aramaic snipped] ..... is the psssive participle for the Aramaic SBR meanign "supposed" It cites a possible emendation for a problem text, but warns that the emendation, which might be 'supposed' to be superior, should nevertheless be avoided. It insists that the text be left as it is, problems nothwithstanding. ************* And as is usual with this glossary it deals with two examples in considerable detail -- in this case with Gn 19:23 and Nb 13:22 I can thoroughly recommend this work -- it is a large format paperback with which even my aging eyes can cope, and it is a very reasonable price. When I bough it a couple of months ago, it was listed at USD 26.00 but was available from Dove Booksellers at USD 18.00 -- try them at: dovebook@ix.netcom.com or have a look at their website: http://www.dovebook.com/menu.htm Maurice A. O'Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ] mauros@iol.ie Confucius said: "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." Analects 2:15 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Jun 29 07:40:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA22329; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:40:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:40:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199806291140.HAA22324@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:13:36 GMT From: "David G.K. Taylor" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc: d.c.parker@bham.ac.uk Subject: tc-list TC book sale! Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1595 I thought members of the list might be interested to know that Cambridge University Press is having a large book sale until 31July, and amongst the many titles available are the following: 1. "An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism", by Leon Vaganay, Christian-Bernard Amphoux and Jenny Heimerdinger (foreword by Keith Elliott) Title Details Binding: Paperback Bibliographic information: 216 x 138 mm 251 pp 4 half-tones 1 table ISBN: 0 521 42493 3 14 November 1991 Sale Price:stlg5.00 Previous price: stlg12.95 2. "Codex Bezae: An Early Christian Manuscript and its Text", by David C. Parker Title Details Binding: Hardback Bibliographic information: 228 x 152 mm 373 pp 25 half-tones ISBN: 0 521 40037 6 09 January 1992 Sale Price:stlg15.00 Previous price: stlg70.00 Full details can be found on the web site, http://www.cup.cam.ac.uk/ (or at the US mirror site). David Taylor *************************************************************************** Dr David G.K.Taylor email: d.g.k.taylor@bham.ac.uk Department of Theology, tel: 0121-414 5666 University of Birmingham, fax: 0121-414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT, U.K. *************************************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Jun 29 12:37:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA23262; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:37:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:37:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199806291637.MAA23257@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:26:39 -0600 From: Tracy Hawke To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Identification? Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 672 Hello, I'm the Departmental Secretary in the Modern Languages Department at Montana State University. I apologize for sending this message to your list since it isn't exactly "on-topic", but I've run out of other resources and options. A member of your list suggested that I send this phrase in: "Spilnosti dojdes Samostatnosti." I was wondering if anyone on your list could identify this language and/or knew the translation to English. If so, would they please contact me off-list at thawke@montana.edu? I believe it is Old Slavic... The closest modern language so far seems to be Croatian. Thank you for any assistance you can provide! Sincerely, Tracy Hawke From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Jun 29 19:11:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA24407; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:11:16 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980629180614.0072d768@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:06:14 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2177 All, I have been reading the Peterson paper on Howard's Shem-Tob Hebrew Matthew research. Peterson contends that The Shem-Tob text descends from Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day. His paper is found at: http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/vol03/Petersen1998a.html Some points I would like to make in rebutal to the Peterson article: 1. Peterson points to several cases where Shem-Tob = Thomas = Dutch In one case Peterson points to 11 cases of ST=Thom=Dutch out of 20 cases of ST=Thom<> Greek Mt. However: Shem-Tob Matthew may have been a primary vehicle that brought these Thomas eadings into the middle ages. Of course similar things can be said regarding many of Peterson's arguments. I note that Peterson does not deal with the many readings in which Shem-Tob Matthew and DuTillet Matthew (and often Munster Matthew as well) agree against all other versions in unique readings. Peterson will need to deal with the close connection that Shem-Tob has to these other Hebrew versions of Matthew. And many cases where one or both of these agree with the Old Syriac against all other versions. Peterson's arguments against Shem-Tob are not coclucive. He may only have shown that certain Dutch manuscripts were influenced by the Hebrew Matthew tradition. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 01:52:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA25054; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:52:17 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:51:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: tc-list Coptic fonts Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 676 Hello everybody, while I=B4m working on some textual variants in Coptic, I=B4ve got problems with processing Coptic letters. Does anybody have (reliable) Coptic fonts for copying them into my Windows95 directory, or know where to get them from? As far as I know the most appropriate file format would be *.ttf. Apart from that: does anybody have a "warm" suggestion for further readings on the Coptic versions and their relevance for textual criticism? Thanks (in advance), Thomas Universit=E4t Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakult=E4t Universit=E4tsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 04:37:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA25457; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:37:05 -0400 X-Sender: schmid@ns1.nias.knaw.nl Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:39:06 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl (U. Schmid) Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1028 On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, James Trimm wrote (in part): >All, > > I have been reading the Peterson paper on Howard's Shem-Tob Hebrew >Matthew research. Peterson contends that The Shem-Tob text descends from >Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day. His paper is >found at: > >http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/vol03/Petersen1998a.html Whatever Mr. Trimm may have read it was certainly not the paper he refers to, for PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." Or is there another publication on the same topic I might have missed, eventually by space-ship-Peterson? Internet and e-mail utterances have one great advantage: They require but a modem. Ulrich Schmid ------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ulrich Schmid E-mail: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl NIAS - Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study Meijboomlaan 1 2242 PR Wassenaar The Netherlands http://www.knaw.nl/nias/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 06:17:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA25608; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:17:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980630111555.007c64e0@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:15:55 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: Re: tc-list Coptic fonts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1321 At 07:51 30/06/98 +0200, you wrote: >Hello everybody, >while I=B4m working on some textual variants in Coptic, I=B4ve got=20 >problems with processing Coptic letters. Does anybody have (reliable)=20 >Coptic fonts for copying them into my Windows95 directory, or know=20 >where to get them from? As far as I know the most appropriate file=20 >format would be *.ttf. Using AltaVista search engine, with the two terms +coptic +fonts, yielded me 667 hits. A useful one is : http://www.remnkemi.com/fonts/=20 which is a summary of a search previously done. It dates from Dec. 97, and as the first ten 'hits' show there are later messages from such as Mark Goodacre's ' A World without Q' site [ http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q~debate.htm ] Incidentally, there is available for free d/l on this TC site the SPAchmim font, but as the author notes "This font is similar to Windows Symbol font with added Coptic letters. The problem with this font is that it is missing a few letters. As you can see on the left, the "V" is missing. It is a Sahidic font." I have a commercial CD-ROM from SSi Fonts [http://www.ssifonts.com/] which includes a Coptic font. Enjoy! Maurice A. O'Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ] mauros@iol.ie Confucius said: "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." Analects 2:15 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 07:27:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA25716; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:27:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3598CF2A.2DCAC9CE@historian.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:42:34 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by picard.accesscomm.net id GAA13304 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3180 U. Schmid wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, James Trimm wrote (in part): > > >All, > > > > I have been reading the Peterson paper on Howard's Shem-Tob Hebrew > >Matthew research. Peterson contends that The Shem-Tob text descends f= rom > >Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day. His pap= er is > >found at: > > > >http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/vol03/Petersen1998a.html > > Whatever Mr. Trimm may have read it was certainly not the paper he refe= rs > to, for PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from > Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." > Petersen: In no way is Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew a relic from early Christianity, = or even directly related to texts from early Christianity. Rather, many--perhaps even most= --of the singular readings in Shem-Tob are distinguished by their presence in other medieval texts related to the harmonized gospel tradition, especially in those texts related to the Vorlage of the Middle Dutch harmonized gospel tradition. Petersen outlines 62 readings of Shem Tob in agreement with the Middle Du= tch Liege Harmony, 14 which are unique. Petersen goes on: 107. Since Middle Dutch literature begins only at about 1200 (at the earl= iest), we can be certain that the archetype of the Middle Dutch tradition was not translated from its Latin Vorlage before 1= 200. And it cannot be later than 1250 or so, for the Li=E8ge Harmony (copied about 1280) is at least a first-generation copy o= f that Middle Dutch archetype (recall the common error which the Li=E8ge Harmony shares with van Maerlant's Rijmbijbel). We can = be certain, then, that the Latin Vorlage from which the Middle Dutch tradition derives was in circulation between about 1200 = and 1250 in Belgium (the provenance is dictated by the Zuid Limburgs dialect in which the Li=E8ge Harmony is written). Petersen: . The Even Bohan was composed in Spain (presumably in Aragon) by a Castilian-born Jew named Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut in 1380 (ibid.: xi). He revised his work at least three times= : in 1385, around 1400, and once again, still later (ibid.). If we have the archetype of the Middle Dutch Tradition dating between 120= 0-1250 and ben Shaprut writing Evan Bohan over a hundred years later, on what basis do you say: PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." Am I missing some nuance of Dr. Trimm's summary that you see as innacurat= e or perhaps some qualifier in Dr. Petersen's review? I find Petersen's evidence that the Shem Tob manuscript as a medieval wor= k related to the Middle Dutch Liege Harmony and not an Early Christian tradition compellin= g and his criticism of Dr. Howard for making the leap between Shem Tob and antiquit= y without first appealing to similar and sympatric test types as also compelling. In my opinion, however, the most compelling evidence that Shem Tob is not= a "pre-Greek" Hebrew version of Matthew is the Gospel of Matthew itself in what is to m= e obvious compositional Greek and reliance on Greek source materials. Jack jkilmon@historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 08:25:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA25900; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:25:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Coptic fonts In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980630111555.007c64e0@gpo.iol.ie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1037 There are several Coptic fonts available for free download from Web or FTP sites, including the SPAchmim font. The author of the page at http://www.remnkemi.com/fonts mischaracterizes SPAchmim by calling it a Sahidic font. In addition to the regular Sahidic characters, it includes two Bohairic forms of chai and one Achmimic form. He states, "The problem with this font is that it is missing a few letters. As you can see on the left, the 'V' is missing." There are no missing letters that I'm aware of, but I didn't create separate large versions of the letters to use as capitals, since the forms are really not any different (so also with the Greek uncial font SPDoric). If you want to use larger forms of the letters, the way to do it is to use in your HTML document. It might be useful in a future version of the font to include separate larger versions of each letter. Jimmy Adair General Editor of TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism -------------------> http://purl.org/TC <-------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 08:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA26020; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:46:51 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980630084549.338f8cf0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: scarlson@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:45:49 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Stephen C. Carlson" Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob In-Reply-To: <3598CF2A.2DCAC9CE@historian.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1005 At 06:42 6/30/98 -0500, Jack Kilmon wrote: >If we have the archetype of the Middle Dutch Tradition dating between 1200-1250 >and ben Shaprut writing >Evan Bohan over a hundred years later, on what basis do you say: > >PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from >Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." > >Am I missing some nuance of Dr. Trimm's summary that you see as innacurate or >perhaps some >qualifier in Dr. Petersen's review? Trimm's summary characterizes (incorrectly) Petersen's views that the Shem-Tob text is a descendent of Dutch gospels versions, rather than being related to the Vorlage of some Middle Dutch harmonies. To me, there is a good deal of difference between the two statements that goes beyond a mere nuance. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, scarlson@mindspring.com : and songs chant the words. http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/ : -- Shujing 2.35 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 08:59:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA26063; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:59:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980629180614.0072d768@postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1729 Petersen does not argue that Shem Tob is a direct descendant of the Middle Dutch Gospel harmonies, but rather that ST and the Dutch harmonies share a recent common _Latin_ ancestor, which also explains ST's close association with Middle Italian gospel harmonies and an Arabic translation of the separate gospels _from Spain_ (the provenance of ST). For example, he says, "Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew is once again sharing a unique reading with a Western medieval harmonized gospel text (this time, the Middle Italian Tuscan Harmony) and Thomas. This example once again demonstrates the dependence of Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew upon the Western medieval Latin harmonized gospel tradition" (par. 136). Again, "Since these agreements cannot stem from Arabic-to-Dutch or Dutch-to-Arabic influence, we are compelled to conclude that the common denominator was, from Velasquez's side, the Latin exemplar of the separate gospels from which he worked, a Latin exemplar which had been profoundly influenced by a Latin gospel harmony akin to the Latin Vorlage of the Li=8Fge Harmony. Because we find not just identical readings, but also evidence of identical harmonization in the separate gospels both in Velasquez/Li=8Fge and in Shem-Tob/Li=8Fge, it is clear that this Latin harmonized gospel tradition influenced not just vernacular harmonies (such as the Li=8Fge Harmony), but also a Latin edition of the separate gospels. It is apparently from this harmony-influenced separate gospel text that both Velasquez's Arabic translation and Shem-Tob's Hebrew translation of Matthew derive" (par.=20 113). Jimmy Adair General Editor of TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism -------------------> http://purl.org/TC <-------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 09:00:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA26099; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:00:11 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:59:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: tc-list Re: Coptic fonts Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <10057AD3BA3@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 309 Thanks to everybody who gave me a hand, especially James, Jack, and Maurice. Your helped me a tremendous lot!!! Thomas Universit=E4t Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakult=E4t Universit=E4tsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 09:15:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA26201; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:15:53 -0400 From: "Mark Goodacre" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:15:03 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list Re: Coptic Fonts Priority: normal Message-ID: <1F7513416A0@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 591 Let me recommend also: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/x_fonts.htm Here Mike Grondin gives the character mapping for both SPAchmim and (what he calls) Coptic2.ttf. The latter is I think the one listed on the site mentioned by Maurice A. O'Sullivan (http://www.remnkemi.com/fonts) as "Coptic Font", available at: http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/fonts/coptic.html Mark -------------------------------------- Dr Mark Goodacre M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology, University of Birmingham Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre (Please note new address) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 09:26:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA26275; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:26:18 -0400 X-Sender: schmid@ns1.nias.knaw.nl Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:28:14 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl (U. Schmid) Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3349 J. Kilmon wrote (in part): >U. Schmid wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, James Trimm wrote (in part): >> >> >All, >> > >> > I have been reading the Peterson paper on Howard's Shem-Tob Hebrew >> >Matthew research. Peterson contends that The Shem-Tob text descends fro= m >> >Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day. His paper= is >> >found at: >> > >> >http://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/scripts/TC/vol03/Petersen1998a.html >> >> Whatever Mr. Trimm may have read it was certainly not the paper he refers >> to, for PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from >> Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." >> > >Petersen: > > In no way is Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew a relic from early Christianity, >or even >directly >related to texts from early Christianity. Rather, many--perhaps even most--= of >the singular readings in Shem-Tob are >distinguished by their presence in other medieval texts related to the >harmonized gospel tradition, especially in those texts related >to the Vorlage of the Middle Dutch harmonized gospel tradition. > >Petersen outlines 62 readings of Shem Tob in agreement with the Middle Dutc= h >Liege Harmony, 14 which >are unique. > >Petersen goes on: > >107. Since Middle Dutch literature begins only at about 1200 (at the earlie= st), >we can be certain that the archetype of the >Middle Dutch tradition was not translated from its Latin Vorlage before 120= 0. >And it cannot be later than 1250 or so, for the >Li=E8ge Harmony (copied about 1280) is at least a first-generation copy of = that >Middle Dutch archetype (recall the common error >which the Li=E8ge Harmony shares with van Maerlant's Rijmbijbel). We can be >certain, then, that the Latin Vorlage from which >the Middle Dutch tradition derives was in circulation between about 1200 an= d >1250 in Belgium (the provenance is dictated by >the Zuid Limburgs dialect in which the Li=E8ge Harmony is written). > >Petersen: > >. The Even Bohan was composed in Spain (presumably in Aragon) by a >Castilian-born Jew named Shem-Tob ben-Isaac >ben-Shaprut in 1380 (ibid.: xi). He revised his work at least three times: = in >1385, around 1400, and once again, still later (ibid.). > >If we have the archetype of the Middle Dutch Tradition dating between 1200-= 1250 >and ben Shaprut writing >Evan Bohan over a hundred years later, on what basis do you say: > >PETERSEN did not contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from >Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." Jack, Bill Petersen is talking about the *Vorlage* of the Dutch Harmony tradition. This *Vorlage*, of course, is a LATIN one (cf. the first two citations you gave). Shem Tob's Mt, therefore, is related to Latin sources. Of course, Dutch Bible translations "existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." But that does not imply that he used them. Besides, why after all should a late medieval writer in Spain having used a Dutch source? Again, where does Petersen contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day? Ulrich Schmid ------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ulrich Schmid E-mail: schmiul@nias.knaw.nl NIAS - Netherlands Institute for Advanced Study Meijboomlaan 1 2242 PR Wassenaar The Netherlands http://www.knaw.nl/nias/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 11:30:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26697; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:30:23 -0400 Message-ID: <35992088.46EA10D1@historian.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:29:44 -0700 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1331 James R. Adair wrote: > Petersen does not argue that Shem Tob is a direct descendant of the Middle > Dutch Gospel harmonies, but rather that ST and the Dutch harmonies share a > recent common _Latin_ ancestor, which also explains ST's close association > with Middle Italian gospel harmonies and an Arabic translation of the > separate gospels _from Spain_ (the provenance of ST). For example, he > says, "Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew is once again sharing a unique reading > with a Western medieval harmonized gospel text (this time, the Middle > Italian Tuscan Harmony) and Thomas. OK..this makes sense, the "descendency" from the Dutch Harmony is more rhetorical that accurate. The issue, which we have been discussing on textcrit, is my position that characteristics of the Shem-Tob Matthew cannot be considered to have been characteristics of a putative Hebrew Matthew that pre-dates the Greek canonical version. I cannot speak about the characteristics of Du Tillet and Munster since I have not read exemplars and will hold back my strong impulse to declare that the canonical Gospel of Matthew never had a Hebrew "original." From a form and source critical standpoint, I just cant see it...but I have been surprised before and I even have been wrong before...I think back in 1948 (g). Jack jkilmon@historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 11:44:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26760; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:44:52 -0400 Message-ID: <359923EE.E0E404AB@historian.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:44:14 -0700 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 735 U. Schmid wrote: > Jack, > > Bill Petersen is talking about the *Vorlage* of the Dutch Harmony > tradition. This *Vorlage*, of course, is a LATIN one (cf. the first two > citations you gave). Shem Tob's Mt, therefore, is related to Latin sources. > Of course, Dutch Bible translations "existed prior to Shem-Tob's day." But > that does not imply that he used them. Besides, why after all should a late > medieval writer in Spain having used a Dutch source? > Again, where does Petersen contend "that The Shem-Tob text descends from > Dutch gospels versions which existed prior to Shem-Tob's day? Now it makes sense. As Jimmy Adair has also explained, I compeletely overlooked the "descendency" issue. Jack jkilmon@historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 11:50:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26806; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:50:54 -0400 Message-ID: <35992558.4E2AA3F@historian.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:50:16 -0700 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob References: <3.0.1.16.19980630084549.338f8cf0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 699 Stephen C. Carlson wrote: > Trimm's summary characterizes (incorrectly) Petersen's views that the > Shem-Tob text is a descendent of Dutch gospels versions, rather than > being related to the Vorlage of some Middle Dutch harmonies. To me, > there is a good deal of difference between the two statements that > goes beyond a mere nuance. Yes, you are correct, of course. It is a technical correction that does not interfere with my position that this MSS in NOT a witness to a Hebrew "precursor" of canonical Matthew. In order not to get too far afield on this technical correction, I would like to hear comments on the Howard vs Petersen positions on Shem-Tob. Jack jkilmon@historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Jun 30 14:41:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA27684; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:41:40 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980630133634.00744cc4@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:36:34 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: Re: tc-list Peterson on Howard's Shem Tob In-Reply-To: <35992088.46EA10D1@historian.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2855 At 10:29 AM 6/30/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >James R. Adair wrote: > >> Petersen does not argue that Shem Tob is a direct descendant of the Middle >> Dutch Gospel harmonies, but rather that ST and the Dutch harmonies share a >> recent common _Latin_ ancestor, which also explains ST's close association >> with Middle Italian gospel harmonies and an Arabic translation of the >> separate gospels _from Spain_ (the provenance of ST). For example, he >> says, "Shem-Tob's Hebrew Matthew is once again sharing a unique reading >> with a Western medieval harmonized gospel text (this time, the Middle >> Italian Tuscan Harmony) and Thomas. > >OK..this makes sense, the "descendency" from the Dutch Harmony is >more rhetorical that accurate. > > The issue, which we have been discussing on textcrit, is my position that > >characteristics of the Shem-Tob Matthew cannot be considered to have been >characteristics of a putative Hebrew Matthew that pre-dates the Greek >canonical version. I cannot speak about the characteristics of Du Tillet >and Munster since I have not read exemplars and will hold back my >strong impulse to declare that the canonical Gospel of Matthew never >had a Hebrew "original." From a form and source critical standpoint, I >just cant see it...but I have been surprised before and I even have been >wrong before...I think back in 1948 (g). > >Jack >jkilmon@historian.net > > I am sorry for my error in my summary of Peterson's arguments. If I understand correctly then Peterson is pointing to a Latin text behind both Shem-Tob and the Dutch text. Is this an extant Latin text or just a theoretical underlying text? Could the Latin text of which Peterson speaks of have been affected by an older text which was closely related to Shem-Tob? If the core of the Shem-Tob text is as ancient as Howard believes, should we be surprised to see readings from Shem-Tob appear in later versions? I am not sure that I see how any of this would disprove Howard's theory. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Epigraphy Forum (discusion of epigraphy, precolumbian transoceanic contact & cultural diffusion) subscribe at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/index.html