From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 13:00:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA22661; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:00:05 -0400 Subject: Re: tc-list Article in Nature Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:02:29 -0000 x-sender: jrcovey@cii.cochran.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "James R. Covey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1307464274-752882@cii.cochran.com> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4253 re missive of 31/08/98 09:26 PM signed -Steven Carr- : >Apparently there is an article in Nature (vol 394, p 839) giving details >of a new text critical program which was applied to Canterbury Tales. > >It seems this new program is based on methods used to find common >ancestors of DNA strings. from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_159000/159352.stm >Thursday, August 27, 1998 Published at 07:54 GMT 08:54 UK > >Sci/Tech > >Computer judges Wife of Bath to be chaste > >Chaucer's Canterbury Tales may not be as racy as scholars >thought > >Students of Chaucer may have to rethink their theories about >one of the most notorious woman in early English literature, >the Wife of Bath. > >Using evolutionary biology, scientists have been able to >debunk the long-held theory that the sexually voracious Wife >of Bath was actually so outrageous. > >Biologists at Cambridge University have used a system >developed for tracing the origin of the species through >their DNA to work out which of the 58 surviving versions of >The Canterbury Tales are closest to the original, which no >longer exists. > >DNA tests show the Wife of Bath to be more demureSome depict >the wife as coarse and with an indiscriminate sexual >appetite, but researchers say they can now restore her to >the personality they believe Chaucer intended. > >The most authentic manuscripts still paint her as >outrageous, but with hankerings after respectability. > >The infamous passage about her appetite for all men "were he >short or long or black or white", no matter "how poore" or >of "what degree", was probably excised by Chaucer and >replaced by scholars later, the scientists have discovered. > >The results of the research - published in the scientific >journal Nature - found evidence for believing that Chaucer's >own copy was not a completed single text but a working >draft. > >The researchers, led by Dr Christopher Howe, wrote: "In >time, this may lead editors to produce a radically different >text of The Canterbury Tales." > >Dr Christopher Howe and DR Peter Robinson explain how they >made the breakthroughSpeaking on Radio 4's Today programme, >one of the literary experts who worked on the project, Dr >Peter Robinson, said the research made the Wife of Bath a >different person. > >"It stresses her desire for social and economic dominance >rather than her sexual aggression," he said. > >Dr Howe's team worked with manuscript experts from De >Montfort University in Leicester who are investigating the >origins of Chaucer's works. > >They used the latest computerised techniques normally used >by biologists to reconstruct the evolutionary trees of >different species from their DNA. > >Early hand-copied manuscripts often contain duplicated >mistakes and variations. > >By comparing the similarities and differences of a number of >texts, scientists are able to reach conclusions about what >an original copy was like, even if it has been lost. > >Family trees > >Until now, the technique, known as 'stemmatics', has been a >laborious manual process only feasible for a few short >manuscripts. > >But Dr Howe realised it had much in common with the >techniques used by evolutionary biologists to track >different species' family trees. > >He and his team concentrated on The Wife of Bath's Prologue >to produce a computer-generated family tree showing the >relationships between the 58 different 15th century versions >of the story. > >A number of manuscripts formed groups which could be traced >back to distinct common ancestors. > >One particular group appeared to go back further than the >others to a point probably close to the missing original. > >Yet these manuscripts had mostly been ignored by scholars. > >Dr Robinson added that the work had given the team a >"radically more efficient" way of discovering the early >history of the Tales. > >"It has already suggested vital new approaches to >long-unsolved problems, which will bring us much closer to >understanding what Chaucer left behind him at his death." ------------------------- James R. Covey WWW Systems Developer Cochran Interactive Inc. http://www.cochran.com direct ph. # 902.422.8915 office fax # 902.425.8659 jrcovey@cochran.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 13:48:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA23158; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:47:59 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1307464274-752882@cii.cochran.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:42:58 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Article in Nature Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 5161 On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, "James R. Covey" wrote: [ ... ] >from the BBC: Thanks for posting this. I think I/we still need to look up the article in _Nature_, but now we can at least come up with preliminary responses. [ ... ] >>Chaucer's Canterbury Tales may not be as racy as scholars >>thought >> >>Students of Chaucer may have to rethink their theories about >>one of the most notorious woman in early English literature, >>the Wife of Bath. >> >>Using evolutionary biology, I don't believe it! Somebody else is actually using an idea I've been preaching for years. :-) Note: I am not claiming credit for this. They did the work; I merely discussed the idea with people informally. But the link to biology, genealogy, etc. is one I have been talking about for years -- they are all evolutionary processes. >>scientists have been able to >>debunk the long-held theory that the sexually voracious Wife >>of Bath was actually so outrageous. >> >>Biologists at Cambridge University have used a system >>developed for tracing the origin of the species through >>their DNA to work out which of the 58 surviving versions of >>The Canterbury Tales are closest to the original, which no >>longer exists. This statement, if accurate, strikes me as disturbing. It implies that the scholars are looking for an original *manuscript*, not an original text. Now I know that people on this list vary in the degree and form of their eclecticism (is that the correct spelling? My spellchecker offers "eclecticsm"!). But I think we would all agree -- even the supporters of the Byzantine Text -- that no single manuscript should be followed [ ... ] >>The results of the research - published in the scientific >>journal Nature - found evidence for believing that Chaucer's >>own copy was not a completed single text but a working >>draft. This is to be expected, actually. The _Tales_ were never finished. [ ... ] >>Family trees >> >>Until now, the technique, known as 'stemmatics', has been a >>laborious manual process only feasible for a few short >>manuscripts. >> >>But Dr Howe realised it had much in common with the >>techniques used by evolutionary biologists to track >>different species' family trees. >> >>He and his team concentrated on The Wife of Bath's Prologue >>to produce a computer-generated family tree showing the >>relationships between the 58 different 15th century versions >>of the story. >> >>A number of manuscripts formed groups which could be traced >>back to distinct common ancestors. There is nothing new here. It should be noted that, compared to the New Testament, the data for Chaucer is limited, recent, and tightly grouped. Applying the same system to New Testament manuscripts is far harder. It can certainly be done (the Claremont Profile Method or the Munster "Thousand Readings" shows that databases can be constructed to cover all manuscripts). And we would doubtless discover many kinship groups not presently known (even in the Gospels, since the Claremont method is not properly controlled). But I strongly suspect we will not be able to get true genealogy. This is, of course, conventional wisdom. But it's also *true*, in my experience. We can and have reconstructed "family" texts (e.g. the subgroups of Family 13). We can make good progress on sub-text-types (e.g. P75-B-T, family 1739). But text-types probably cannot be reconstructed, and we will almost certainly not be able to go beyond that. >>One particular group appeared to go back further than the >>others to a point probably close to the missing original. >> >>Yet these manuscripts had mostly been ignored by scholars. This is interesting and perhaps informative. It also has analogies in New Testament criticism, where some interesting and important families of minuscules barely make it into our apparatuses (examples include Family 2138, Family 330, Family 2127, even Family 1739, which gets attention but not as much as it should). >>Dr Robinson added that the work had given the team a >>"radically more efficient" way of discovering the early >>history of the Tales. >> >>"It has already suggested vital new approaches to >>long-unsolved problems, which will bring us much closer to >>understanding what Chaucer left behind him at his death." I do think we need to be cautious about this. (Too bad we can't get an article in TC about the software. :-) I think there is great potential to sort out families and groups. I'm not sure it will help us in the greater problem of reconstructing the original text -- especially if the basic method continues to be reasoned eclecticism. (Personally, I'd be willing to trust a computer to reconstruct a text -- as long as I controlled the algorithms. :-) But I wonder how many others here would?) Still, I want to know more, and hope to learn more. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 16:06:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24860; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:06:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:06:16 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) From: Ronald Minton To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 In-Reply-To: <199808310700.DAA09927@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 274 I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any help is appreciated. Prof. Ron Minton rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 5379 North Farm Road 179 Springfield, MO 65803 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 16:45:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25179; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:45:10 -0400 Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:27:07 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980901202707.00665f34@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 492 At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any >help is appreciated. 9:3? Cuz there is no "lo" to be seen, either in the text or in the apparatus. > >Prof. Ron Minton >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 >5379 North Farm Road 179 >Springfield, MO 65803 > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 18:11:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA26031; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:11:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:01:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Rodney Hutton Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu cc: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980901202707.00665f34@highland.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1735 The Hebrew of Isaiah 9:2 (= 9:3 in English) does have a peculiar text, reading something like: "You have multiplied the nation (haggoi). NOT! (lo'). You have increased the joy." The editor suggests reading "You have multiplied the rejoicing (haggilah), you have increased the joy." LXX reads "The major part of the nation which you (m.s.) have brought down (kategages) in your rejoicing." I cannot suggest withouth Hatch and Redpath how LXX derived its reading from either the MT or the editor's proposed reading. I can see why the BHS editor suggests taking haggoi lo as haggila, but LXX supports the reading of haggoi. If a textual change were made from haggilah to haggoi, it would have had to have occured prior to the translation into Greek. I'd have to check in Hatch and Redpath to see what words possibly lie behind katago ("bring down, lead down") to see what the translator might have been seeing. But I'll leave this to folks with more time. On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Jim West wrote: > At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for > >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any > >help is appreciated. > > 9:3? Cuz there is no "lo" to be seen, either in the text or in the apparatus. > > > > >Prof. Ron Minton > >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 > >5379 North Farm Road 179 > >Springfield, MO 65803 > > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > Jim West, ThD > Quartz Hill School of Theology > jwest@highland.net _______________________________________________________________________ Rod Hutton || Disclaimer, Datclaimer! Columbus, Ohio || What's all dis about a || Claimer? From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 19:00:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA26415; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:00:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:59:46 +0000 From: Jim West Subject: tc-list re; Is 9:3 X-Sender: jwest@highland.net (Unverified) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980901185946.0066cb8c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 424 Ah- so it was 9:2 you were interested in? Who knew? This is a good time to remember that the verse numbering is often different in the Eng. versions... and that those numbers are quite useless when a question is raised. The MT should alwys be the source of questions when one is making use of a verse reference- please. Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 19:21:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA26553; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:21:10 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980901232550.006db688@sd.znet.com> X-Sender: gipe@sd.znet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:25:50 -0700 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Mark Gipe Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 672 Isaiah 9:2 As MT "hirbitha hagoy lo' " = "you have made the nation populous no" The Leningrad Codex B19a ( and I'm sure others ) has a side note to read the text as "lo" instead of "lo' " that is lamed vav instead of lamed alef so the translation should read something like " You have made the nation populous for him" or "for it" Mark Gipe At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any >help is appreciated. > >Prof. Ron Minton >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 >5379 North Farm Road 179 >Springfield, MO 65803 > > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 20:04:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA26779; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:04:17 -0400 Message-ID: <35EC8FCA.70380CC@historian.net> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:22:34 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 References: <1.5.4.32.19980901232550.006db688@sd.znet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1093 The Great Isaiah Scroll 1QIsa shows lw) (lamed waw alef). I have cropped a JPG of the text and will be glad to attach it to a post if you, or Dr. Minton, is interested. Jack Mark Gipe wrote: > > Isaiah 9:2 > > As MT > > "hirbitha hagoy lo' " = "you have made the nation populous no" > > The Leningrad Codex B19a ( and I'm sure others ) has a side note to read the > text as "lo" instead of "lo' " that is lamed vav instead of lamed alef so > the translation should read something like " You have made the nation > populous for him" or "for it" > > Mark Gipe > > > At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for > >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any > >help is appreciated. > > > >Prof. Ron Minton > >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 > >5379 North Farm Road 179 > >Springfield, MO 65803 > > > > > > -- ______________________________________________ Min d'LA rokHEM l'maRAN yeSHUa meshyCHA niheYAH. maRAN aTHA Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 20:33:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27043; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:33:52 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980902003830.006c95e4@sd.znet.com> X-Sender: gipe@sd.znet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:38:30 -0700 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Mark Gipe Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1216 Have it, thanks anyway Jack, Mark At 07:22 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >The Great Isaiah Scroll 1QIsa shows lw) (lamed waw alef). I have >cropped a JPG of the text and will be glad to attach it to a post >if you, or Dr. Minton, is interested. > >Jack > >Mark Gipe wrote: >> >> Isaiah 9:2 >> >> As MT >> >> "hirbitha hagoy lo' " = "you have made the nation populous no" >> >> The Leningrad Codex B19a ( and I'm sure others ) has a side note to read the >> text as "lo" instead of "lo' " that is lamed vav instead of lamed alef so >> the translation should read something like " You have made the nation >> populous for him" or "for it" >> >> Mark Gipe >> >> >> At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for >> >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any >> >help is appreciated. >> > >> >Prof. Ron Minton >> >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 >> >5379 North Farm Road 179 >> >Springfield, MO 65803 >> > >> > >> > > >-- >______________________________________________ > >Min d'LA rokHEM l'maRAN yeSHUa meshyCHA niheYAH. maRAN aTHA > >Jack Kilmon >jkilmon@historian.net > >http://www.historian.net > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 1 23:08:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA27721; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:08:47 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980902030134.00cc50f4@utc.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: cierpke.utc@utc.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:01:34 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 Cc: rminton@mail.orion.org Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 949 Ron: The evidence: "not increased": The Kethiv of the Massoretic text and the Vulgate "increased":The Qere of the Massoretic text and the Targums The LXX has "Most of the people You have brought down in Your joy Hope this helps At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for >and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any >help is appreciated. > >Prof. Ron Minton >rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 >5379 North Farm Road 179 >Springfield, MO 65803 > > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campus.mci.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 01:37:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA28125; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:37:31 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:31:22 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Steven Carr Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 In-Reply-To: <35EC8FCA.70380CC@historian.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (16) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 369 In message <35EC8FCA.70380CC@historian.net>, Jack Kilmon writes >The Great Isaiah Scroll 1QIsa shows lw) (lamed waw alef). I have >cropped a JPG of the text and will be glad to attach it to a post >if you, or Dr. Minton, is interested. Is this DSS Isaiah Scroll very similar, or reasonably similar, or quite different from the later MT text? From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 09:36:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29971; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:35:58 -0400 Message-ID: <003086DDAD30D211842F00062B0006E11B718A@esusa.esusa.org> From: Curt Niccum To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: tc-list RE: the Isaiah scroll Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 08:35:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1735 The great Isaiah scroll (1QIsa-a) is reasonably similar to the MT. The first half of the scroll (chs. 1-32) is slightly closer to the MT than the second half. The scribe employed two scrolls for Isaiah. The second had a fuller orthography and was apparently defective in places which accounts for most of the variations from the MT in chs. 33-66. (By the way, 1QIsa-b is very similar, indeed almost identical to the MT.) As for the orthography of lw), the Dead Sea Scrolls (even 1QIsa-a) can not be used to solve the issue of which "lo" was meant by an author (or editor). lw) can represent any of the following: lw, l), lw), lh, l)h. This is not only an issue of "Qumran orthography" (the existence of which I doubt). The same fluctuation in spellings occurs in the MT as well. Having been educated with grammars which by necessity had to impose classifications on word usage, it becomes second nature to assume lw (as a spelling in a ms) always means lw (as a definition in Brown-Driver-Briggs). This can be misleading. The orthography and morphology of Hebrew was much too fluid during the time that the biblical text took its shape. Curt Niccum -----Original Message----- From: Steven Carr [SMTP:steven@bowness.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 12:31 AM To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 In message <35EC8FCA.70380CC@historian.net>, Jack Kilmon writes >The Great Isaiah Scroll 1QIsa shows lw) (lamed waw alef). I have >cropped a JPG of the text and will be glad to attach it to a post >if you, or Dr. Minton, is interested. Is this DSS Isaiah Scroll very similar, or reasonably similar, or quite different from the later MT text? From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 11:12:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA01689; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:12:01 -0400 From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:11:48 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list nomina sacra paper Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01a) Message-ID: <1CF6FD35B16@div.ed.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 463 As I have received a couple of inquiries about my paper on the nomina sacra, I report that I have just sent off the corrected proofs, which show a projected publication in the final issue (#4) of the 1998 Journal of Biblical Literature. Essay title: "The Origin of the Nomina Sacra: A Proposal". L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 11:24:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA01920; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:24:39 -0400 Message-ID: <35ED7E7C.3456F87D@historian.net> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:21:00 -0700 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 810 Steven Carr wrote: > In message <35EC8FCA.70380CC@historian.net>, Jack Kilmon > writes > >The Great Isaiah Scroll 1QIsa shows lw) (lamed waw alef). I have > >cropped a JPG of the text and will be glad to attach it to a post > >if you, or Dr. Minton, is interested. > > Is this DSS Isaiah Scroll very similar, or reasonably similar, or quite > different from the later MT text? 1QIs(a) and 1QIs(b) were the first scrolls found in the caves by theBedouin shepherd boy in 1947. I saw this scroll for the first time in 1948 in Bill Albright's office at JHU. The B scroll is very similar to the MT with minor variations. The A Scroll is something else again. It uses "Qumranese" and language common to the time it was copied rather than when composed. Jack jkilmon@historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 17:47:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA10185; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:47:52 -0400 From: scanlin@compuserve.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:47:54 -0400 Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199809021748_MC2-5832-F537@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 626 The lo [with aleph] we lo [with waw] ketiv-qere variant is a famous Masoretic phenomenon which occurs 17 times in the Hebrew Bible, including= Isa 9.2. (See Weil: MM 1795 for the list.) Bruno Ognibeni, in Tradizion= i orali di letture e testo ebraico della Bibbia: studio de diciassette keti= v l' / qere lw (Fribourg, 1989) says that in every instance the context ma= y be considered ambiguous. (For convenience, see the short review of Ognibeni in CBQ 53(1991):681-2.) O.'s textual analysis of Isa 9.2 is on pp. 95-99. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 2 21:05:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA11347; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:05:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:12:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199809030112.VAA31559@server1.netpath.net> X-Sender: rlmullen@server1.netpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Roderic L. Mullen" Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1125 I wonder if this "lo" could be another example of the emphatic particle as suggested for Ex.3:3 by Brevard Childs on p.50 of his Commentary on Exodus. See also Kholer-Baumgartner (English ed.) vol.2, pp510-511. A translation could then read "you have made the nations populous indeed!" A difficulty here would be that "Lo" emphatic seems usually to precede the predicate. --Rod Mullen At 04:25 PM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Isaiah 9:2 > >As MT > >"hirbitha hagoy lo' " = "you have made the nation populous no" > >The Leningrad Codex B19a ( and I'm sure others ) has a side note to read the >text as "lo" instead of "lo' " that is lamed vav instead of lamed alef so >the translation should read something like " You have made the nation >populous for him" or "for it" > >Mark Gipe > > >At 03:06 PM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I do not have study materials with me, but I need the textual evidence for >>and against the word "not" in Isaiah 9:3, "not increased the joy." Any >>help is appreciated. >> >>Prof. Ron Minton >>rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 >>5379 North Farm Road 179 >>Springfield, MO 65803 >> >> >> > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 3 13:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA15467; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:21:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:21:11 -0400 From: Cook@AKAD.SUN.AC.ZA Message-Id: <199809031721.NAA15462@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:19:35 +0200 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1167 From: scanlin@compuserve.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:47:54 -0400 Subject: Re: tc-list "not" in Isaiah 9:3 To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Reply-to: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu The lo [with aleph] we lo [with waw] ketiv-qere variant is a famous Masoretic phenomenon which occurs 17 times in the Hebrew Bible, including Isa 9.2. (See Weil: MM 1795 for the list.) Bruno Ognibeni, in Tradizioni orali di letture e testo ebraico della Bibbia: studio de diciassette ketiv l' / qere lw (Fribourg, 1989) says that in every instance the context may be considered ambiguous. (For convenience, see the short review of Ognibeni in CBQ 53(1991):681-2.) O.'s textual analysis of Isa 9.2 is on pp. 95-99. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com I addressed the orthography of the large Isaiah scroll in the Festschrift for Millik published in Krakow. Prof. Johann Cook Department of Ancient Near Eastern Studies University of Stellenbosch 7600 Stellenbosch SOUTH AFRICA tel 22-21-8083207 fax: 22-21-8083480 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 3 15:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA16460; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:13:03 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Glen Thompson" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:00:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list Greek O.T. "editiones quinta et sexta" X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Glen Thompson" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19980903110122.54d5cf6e.in@mailhost.mlc-wels.edu> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1155 Dear TCers: I am needing to find information on what became known as the "editio quinta" and the "editio sexta." Origen's Hexapla had 4 Greek versions - LXX, Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion. In addition, for certain sections, including the Psalms, he had a fifth and sixth (7th and 8th columns in his edition). I have discovered a little about their origin, but am especially interested in their circulation. Were editions of these versions available outside Caesarea where ORigin's Hexapla lay. I have seen it said that the Tetrapla (the 4 Greek versions mentioned above) circulated separately from the Hexapla. Also, that the Hexapla as a whole never circulated, i.e. that Jerome had to have copies of parts made as needed or had to go to Caesarea to consult the whole. The point of my research is to try to nail down at what periods of his life Jerome might have had access to the quinta and sexta, i.e. only during his Bethlehem years, or perhaps during his stay at Antioch, Constantinople and/or Rome. Any help or thoughts or references where to look further would be appreciated. Glen L. thompson Martin Luther College From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 3 15:36:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA16568; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:36:50 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980903110122.54d5cf6e.in@mailhost.mlc-wels.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:36:58 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Greek O.T. "editiones quinta et sexta" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2142 On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, "Glen Thompson" wrote: >Dear TCers: > >I am needing to find information on what became known as the "editio >quinta" and the "editio sexta." Origen's Hexapla had 4 Greek >versions - LXX, Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion. In addition, for >certain sections, including the Psalms, he had a fifth and sixth >(7th and 8th columns in his edition). I have discovered a little >about their origin, but am especially interested in their >circulation. > >Were editions of these versions available outside >Caesarea where ORigin's Hexapla lay. I have seen it said that the >Tetrapla (the 4 Greek versions mentioned above) circulated separately >from the Hexapla. Also, that the Hexapla as a whole never >circulated, i.e. that Jerome had to have copies of parts made as >needed or had to go to Caesarea to consult the whole. > >The point of my research is to try to nail down at what periods of >his life Jerome might have had access to the quinta and sexta, i.e. >only during his Bethlehem years, or perhaps during his stay at >Antioch, Constantinople and/or Rome. As I recall, Origen found one of those versions in a jar somewhere. Not what one would call the ordinary mode of circulation. :-) I have read that neither the hexapla nor the tetrapla actually circulated -- and I believe it. Too big, too expensive, too hard to copy accurately (since the former needed a scribe versed in both Greek and Hebrew, and even the latter, while the demands on the scribe were less, *still* required four times the parchment of an ordinary LXX). On the subject of the tetrapla, BTW, see H. M. Orlinsky, "Origen's Tetrapla--A Scholarly Fiction?" reprinted in Sidney Jellicoe, ed., _Studies in the Septuagint: Origins, Recensions, and Interpretations_ (Ktav, 1974). But the basic work you should consult is, of course, Field's edition of the Hexapla. It's a century and a quarter old, but I (based on my admittedly limited knowledge) know of no comprehensive replacement. Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 3 19:18:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA18557; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:18:44 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980903232324.006df710@sd.znet.com> X-Sender: gipe@sd.znet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 16:23:24 -0700 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Mark Gipe Subject: Re: tc-list Greek O.T. "editiones quinta et sexta" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1569 I know this is not what you are asking about, but for photos of the Hexapla see "Psalterii Hexapli Reliqviae" by Iohannis Card. Mercati printed in 1958. I have some copies of the book about 75 pages of so but not the whole thing. I know a library about 20 miles from where I live that has it. Also note other post for more data. Mark Gipe At 11:00 AM 9/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >Dear TCers: > >I am needing to find information on what became known as the "editio >quinta" and the "editio sexta." Origen's Hexapla had 4 Greek >versions - LXX, Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion. In addition, for >certain sections, including the Psalms, he had a fifth and sixth >(7th and 8th columns in his edition). I have discovered a little >about their origin, but am especially interested in their >circulation. > >Were editions of these versions available outside >Caesarea where ORigin's Hexapla lay. I have seen it said that the >Tetrapla (the 4 Greek versions mentioned above) circulated separately >from the Hexapla. Also, that the Hexapla as a whole never >circulated, i.e. that Jerome had to have copies of parts made as >needed or had to go to Caesarea to consult the whole. > >The point of my research is to try to nail down at what periods of >his life Jerome might have had access to the quinta and sexta, i.e. >only during his Bethlehem years, or perhaps during his stay at >Antioch, Constantinople and/or Rome. > >Any help or thoughts or references where to look further would be >appreciated. > >Glen L. thompson >Martin Luther College > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 4 09:13:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA21305; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:13:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199809041313.JAA21300@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Ed Gorham (WIXT)" To: "'TC List'" Subject: tc-list Published facsimilies/transcriptions Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:07:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BDD805.9462E66C" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4292 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD805.9462E66C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Could anyone out there provide me with bibliographic data for published facsimiles and/or transcriptions of the papyri, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, etc. etc? I hear people making reference to them, but can seem to locate them. For those of you who don't subscribe to B-Greek, it seems that the eventually-to-be-published book by Comfort and Barrett, The Complete Texts of the Earliest NT Manuscripts, has some problems. Bart Ehrman was asked to write a blurb based on his reading of the introduction and rejected it out of hand, saying it was filled with egregious factual errors. (!) I'd appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks! Ed Gorham egorham@ackerley.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD805.9462E66C Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjQNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQSAAQAlAAAAUHVibGlzaGVkIGZhY3NpbWlsaWVzL3RyYW5zY3Jp cHRpb25zAHsOAQmAAQAhAAAAQ0E4QjczRDdEMzQzRDIxMUIxQ0YwMDgwMjlFODUwNkEAIQcBC4AB ACEAAABDQThCNzNEN0QzNDNEMjExQjFDRjAwODAyOUU4NTA2QQAhBwEggAMADgAAAM4HCQAEAAYA CwAzAAUAKwEBBYADAA4AAADOBwkABAAGAAcABQAFAPkAAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYARAgAABwA AABAADkAALLb6QTYvQEeAHAAAQAAACUAAABQdWJsaXNoZWQgZmFjc2ltaWxpZXMvdHJhbnNjcmlw dGlvbnMAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb3YBOmY13OL2kPTEdKxzwCAKehQagAAAgEJEAEAAAAIBQAA BAUAAJwJAABMWkZ15ANExTcACQMwAQI1APILYG5n8DEwMzMB9wHxDgAD1IkCAGNoCsBzZXQC0eBw cnEyIAcTAoACkRUI5jsJbzAST2UyNf41E3oUkRRPFVkTZBWCE+8fF78XfRb/FS8Tf2UxMv44HUoe YR4fHykTZB9SHb+fIY8hTSDPHv8ixDkyJgUPJ3EfkydwAoJzdHlsNQeQaAngdAAAA/BkYzx0bAqz D4MB0AMwc258ZXgQkAewBbAAwAJzKg0I0HMOkAMwYWRkaUB0aXZlIEQBEGFUdWwFQFAKwGEJwGGw cGggRgIhKKMxDgD3KacKIAsgcglQL4IQAC+CbHc0HLEQYHAqoipYYvphEHBkAiABQCrjLrAtcBsF EAIwLS4QA2E6IFRCbzOgU3ViagWQdEEzoERhdGU6LmQ2/y7fL+8w8ykwLHALgA6AFgA/KrEMMCpU EQAxzzLXUmXjLNAQYSBIZSxwBJAuZO43NV82bzd7MD8QOHgBQMkOVDI0OS8xODrBC1C8eS8uIDBw CxE7RXMuZP8fcDw/PU8xD0DvQfkzwjNkZTSVfQFVMzYBQCmhb+53KdBEYQGAbjQgAGAJ8P0sgG8A 4AIQK3A3wizgAgA3EIEr0jSwbQtRNLAgQyg6XFwF4E8BIGljamVNsFcLgHcFsAswXNNNEAtwbC45 kHRJkBBwfynQQoA/8AuAKwABQEthbmspQBJgICvScACABZBsrHZsAFBRYHUFAG1RUv8BkAAgUeIL gAEAAjABwVFRPxBADnAAAFFgDNABkCAu/xGCUUgngFICLVBEEFJ/U499VJ8zUVEFgVY/V09YX2y6 NFFRbFX/Wr9bxSlUzI8OAFmfXn9btGIgKAKR/1+fUZM1QF1PYg9jH2QvUcD/PBBlclJPZt9n71TM H3Blf+9q/2wPbR9RwDlp729/cI+/cZUK+QMwKa8qsAhRbEKAvQBweQIgLOAIYAVAdFDTuRDQb3Z3 UCzgB4AgA/CReYAgYmkCYGlvLcP5TiAgZDSgXBBL0XnQNBD/UCApMUKALSAsEAdwAxAHkfkAcGQv BbFKsABxBQN7ILkGMW9meXJ50C3geQUQHiwGAAuAC3AssGN1c31/0FY0oE4gAHCAchCAY4IugVI/ ICBJIClAMQrBcGVvC1B6QWFr3TgBIBJgTIASYG5OMHlwam95cm1/0GJ5UYDxIH8QcE0Qg/IJAIDw TWGEMi7vCoUKhUIheXFvOyF/AXjwPnV6gIeAe7ACIAAQcXVfT3CD4YUANBAE8mKD40L0LUcJ0Wt/ 0CyghQMEIN95gDSgfyM64QIwdQdAQfBqLYQALYnALXxYBuBv6mt60Hl4YW1L0QVAfaHfihAKwBJg AkB/0FR/QY4B24KxTWFUKwF+50UKwFAg8weQBUBOVAXQgQIFA4CB+xBABCBzA3B5wwJgiwGBkPOO sgVARWgrcQOgQlB9gexza3zBhAF3BRBNYVwQ/QoxcnEAOVN5MAOge4AEIN8SYDfjfvYzEQNgZFIg fqL/jnMSYDQyfMGKsXlCfwFbYeJkf9BzYXmDIoqxlIKvThCMQHzBepNlCcFneyB/gHB84owSgVCO 4AWwk4EotCEphlxJiLZ4sXAQ0P8FkAcwlYJ44IIhKfCH84TSP5xwLNEHgJORj1AAcGtzaiGGXEVC gEcFsBBAbe8KincqnDCjg0AA0JTgRGCIZXkuBaBtfQCmsAMA/T9SAwAAAwAmAAAAAAADADYAAAAA AB4AMUABAAAAEAAAAEVHT1JIQU00NDhGMzgwOQADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAAEAAAAEVHT1JIQU00 NDhGMzgwOQADABlAAAAAAAIB+T8BAAAAawAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAYAAAAv Tz1BQ0tFUkxFWSBDT01NVU5JQ0FUSU9OUywgSU5DLi9PVT1DT1JQT1JBVEUvQ049UkVDSVBJRU5U Uy9DTj1FR09SSEFNNDQ4RjM4MDkAAB4A+D8BAAAAEQAAAEVkIEdvcmhhbSAoV0lYVCkAAAAAHgA4 QAEAAAAQAAAARUdPUkhBTTQ0OEYzODA5AAIB+z8BAAAAawAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GC AQAAAAYAAAAvTz1BQ0tFUkxFWSBDT01NVU5JQ0FUSU9OUywgSU5DLi9PVT1DT1JQT1JBVEUvQ049 UkVDSVBJRU5UUy9DTj1FR09SSEFNNDQ4RjM4MDkAAB4A+j8BAAAAEQAAAEVkIEdvcmhhbSAoV0lY VCkAAAAAHgA5QAEAAAAQAAAARUdPUkhBTTQ0OEYzODA5AEAABzBglKEABNi9AUAACDBs5mKUBdi9 AR4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAB0OAQAAACUAAABQdWJsaXNoZWQgZmFjc2ltaWxpZXMvdHJhbnNj cmlwdGlvbnMAAAAACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhAjIDw4AwAHECACAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAA AAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAQ09VTERBTllPTkVPVVRUSEVSRVBST1ZJREVNRVdJVEhCSUJMSU9HUkFQ SElDREFUQUZPUlBVQkxJU0hFREZBQ1NJTUlMRVNBTkQvT1JUUkFOU0NSSVBUSU9OU09GVEhFUEFQ WQAAAABjfA== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD805.9462E66C-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 4 10:46:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA21760; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:46:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:47:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce Morrill To: "'TC List'" Subject: Re: tc-list Published facsimilies/transcriptions In-Reply-To: <199809041313.JAA21300@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 402 On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Ed Gorham (WIXT) wrote: > Could anyone out there provide me with bibliographic data for published > facsimiles and/or transcriptions of the papyri, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, > etc. etc? I hear people making reference to them, but can seem to > locate them. See J.K. Elliott's _A Bibliography of Greek New Testament Manuscripts_, Cambridge, 1989. Bruce Morrill bruce@math.ksu.edu From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 4 19:25:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA24166; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:25:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 01:26:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199809042326.BAA00279@ammi.mclink.it> X-Sender: mc2499@mclink.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Ian Hutchesson Subject: tc-list 1) Briggs on Psalms; 2) Bagras Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 555 Hello all. Could someone please tell me what the current view of the analyses of Briggs in the ICC series on the Psalms is. He uses poetic metrical forms to locate glosses in a psalm text, ie when metrical form is disrupted by what seems to be the insertion of materials that don't evince the same physical characteristics. I was also wondering if anyone could give me references in the Rabbis to a person known as Bagras who was responsible for crucifying people. (Are there any datable indications?) Thanks, Ian Ian Hutchesson mc2499@mclink.it From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Sep 7 13:08:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA04227; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:08:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:09:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ronald L. Minton" X-Sender: rminton@orionc0 To: Textual Criticism list Subject: tc-list Art Farstad Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 581 You may have heard that Arthur Farstad died the first of the month. I think the below is accurate: He was born in 1935. Not only was Art a great and humble man of God, but he was also the senior editor of the NKJV translation, co-editor (with Zane Hodges) of the Greek NT According to the Majority Text, author of _The NKJV in the Great Tradition_, organizer of the 1993 Nelson Majority Text Interlinear, President of the Majority Text Society, and was working on Logos-21, the first actual translation of the Majority Text into English. Our loss is heaven's gain. Ron Minton From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 8 16:09:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA09986; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:09:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ronald L. Minton" X-Sender: rminton@orionc0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Mozley pages In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980902030134.00cc50f4@utc.campus.mci.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 239 I need the page #s of James F. Mosley "Tyndale's Supper of the Lord" _Notes and Quires_ Nov. 21, 1942. Does anyone have them handy? Prof. Ron Minton rminton@mail.orion.org (417)833-9581 5379 North Farm Road 179 Springfield, MO 65803 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Sep 8 23:37:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA11611; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:37:52 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980909034239.006cdf1c@sd.znet.com> X-Sender: gipe@sd.znet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:42:39 -0700 To: From: Mark Gipe Subject: tc-list Yeshua ossuary Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 228 Does anyone know where I might find of photograph of the 1st century ossuary with the name of "Yeshua" written on it ( in Hebrew ) which I have read about in a number of books stating that it was found in Jerusalem? Mark Gipe From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 02:56:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA12132; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:56:17 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:56:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: tc-list Quality of fragment photos Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal In-reply-to: <35D180C4.5BAE99F9@chemie.uni-bremen.de> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1722D3D23A3@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3180 > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:47:16 +0200 > From: Wieland Willker > To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > Subject: tc-list Quality of fragment photos > Reply-to: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu On Wednesday, 12 Aug 1998 13:47:16 +0200 Wieland Willer wrote: > Hello, > > today I looked through one of C.P. Thiede's books about the dating of > the Magdalen Mt papyrus. One can have different opinions about his > dating, but he has the best photos I have ever seen of a papyrus > fragment. > I think, with these new(?) photographic tools he used one can make a lot > more out of some fragments. > For example the Egerton gospel, if I remember correctly it was published > in 1935. I would love to see a "Thiede" photo of fragment 2 verso. This > otherwise unknown parable/miracle is my personal obsession. :-) > The photos of the recently published new Egerton fragment (Papyrus Koeln > 255) are also not very thrilling. > Will there ever be any new photos? > > Best wishes > Wieland > > Dear Wieland, sorry on the delay on responding to your inquiry, but I just recently arrrived at work again after having been stuck on several airports in the world because of an airline strike. Unfortunately, I do not agree with you about the quality of the photos contained in Thiede=B4s and D=B4Ancona=B4s "popular bestseller" about the Magdalen fragments. Despite the requested and among papyrologists and palaeographers undisputed method of publishing a papyrus, the tiny Qumran fragment 7Q5 as well as the Magdalen fragments are reproduced with a deep blue background. But only a white background enables the observer to distinguish between holes in a papyrus and ink blots. Dark backgrounds then make such an observation impossible. The same pseudo-scientific approach is revealed by putting thick red lines over the disputed letters in order to establish a sincere reading. From a palaeographical view this is nonsense: the red writing laid over the original letter-traces totally covers them, and they do not represent any hand of early origin which could be compared with the writing on the papyri, but only Thiede=B4s own handwriting. This should definitely not be regarded as a model of how to reproduce papyri. See on the edition of a papyrus, for instance: E. G. Turner, Greek Papyri. An Introduction (2nd ed.; Oxford 1980) 54-73. But what=B4s of more interest for you, Wieland, are the Egerton frgs. and how to get a grip on good quality pictures of them. The best way, I think,= is to write directly to the British Museum in London and the "Papyrussammlung der Uninversit=E4t K=F6ln" (http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/links.html) or, what you may have already found, you=B4ll find any picture in the literature given under the following (http://www.teleport.com/~cabern/andrew/primary/grospels.html) I hope that you=B4ll find what you=B4re looking for. Best wishes, Thomas Universit=E4t Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakult=E4t Universit=E4tsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 03:00:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA12172; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:00:43 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:01:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: tc-list Downloads of NT papyri Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <17240EA17E5@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 490 Hello TCers, does anybody know if there are any high quality images (*.gif; *.jpg) of NT papyri in the web? I need good colour pictures for my lectures on textual criticism and palaeography, which then I can present via a notebook and a beamer to my students. Any suggestions helps! Thanks, Thomas Universit=E4t Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakult=E4t Universit=E4tsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 05:45:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA13151; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:45:18 -0400 From: "Mark Goodacre" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:47:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: tc-list Quality of fragment photos Priority: normal References: <35D180C4.5BAE99F9@chemie.uni-bremen.de> In-reply-to: <1722D3D23A3@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: <344F5C13A8D@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 679 On 9 Sep 98 at 8:56, Thomas J. Kraus wrote: > . . . . what you may have > already found, you=B4ll find any picture in the literature given under t= he > following (http://www.teleport.com/~cabern/andrew/primary/grospels.html) A quick correction: the URL is: http://www.teleport.com/~cabern/andrew/primary/gospels.html Mark -------------------------------------- Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology Tel: +44 (0)121 414 7512 University of Birmingham Fax: +44 (0)121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 05:58:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA13182; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:58:13 -0400 From: "Mark Goodacre" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:00:36 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Downloads of NT papyri CC: "Thomas J. Kraus" Priority: normal In-reply-to: <17240EA17E5@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> Message-ID: <3452BD96F94@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 958 On 9 Sep 98 at 9:01, Thomas J. Kraus wrote: > does anybody know if there are any high quality images (*.gif; *.jpg) of NT > papyri in the web? I need good colour pictures for my lectures on textual > criticism and palaeography, which then I can present via a notebook and a > beamer to my students. Any suggestions helps! Thanks, Thomas Have you looked at the recent addition to Oxford's Oxyrhynchus site ("Oxyrhynchus: A City and Its Texts")? http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/VExhibition/vexhframe_hi.htm It features excellent images of six Matthew papyri (nos. 4401-6) and Jude (2684). Mark Goodacre -------------------------------------- Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology Tel: +44 (0)121 414 7512 University of Birmingham Fax: +44 (0)121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre World Without Q: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/q From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 08:56:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA13786; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:56:14 -0400 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 08:52:16 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list Downloads of NT papyri X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19980909125216.00676c9c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 616 At 09:01 AM 9/9/98 +0200, you wrote: >Hello TCers, >does anybody know if there are any high quality images (*.gif; *.jpg) of >NT papyri in the web? I need good colour pictures for my lectures on >textual criticism and palaeography, which then I can present via a >notebook and a beamer to my students. >Any suggestions helps! >Thanks, Yes- Go to the TC list web page, and there you will find an abundance of links... Or- do a search on Excite or Altavista. There are lots of mss out there. >Thomas Good hunting, Jim ++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 16:26:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA16442; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:25:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:25:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199809092025.QAA16437@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:43:25 -0400 From: Jean-Francois Racine To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Full Collations or Samples? Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1039 I would like to read the opinion of the members of the list on the following question: Is that technically possible to fully collate manuscripts (i.e., computing all variation units) or one still has to proceed from samples (as large as possible)? Without the use of automatic collation by computers, the full collation of mss against each other appears to me a life long task. Yet, the automatic collation by computers assumes that the text of mss exists in electronic format. How often is it the case? In addition, what does mean exactly collating all variation units? Does it include itacisms, nu-movable, non-sense readings, orthographic errors, etc.? One can question the significance of these types of variants although they are, strictly speaking, variants. Jean-Francois Racine Jean-Francois Racine Departement de sciences religieuses et ethique Universite du Quebec a Chicoutimi 555, boul. de l'Universite Chicoutimi, QC G7H 2B1 CANADA Tel: 418-545-5011 poste 2478 FAX: 418-545-5012 courriel: jfracine@uqac.uquebec.ca From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 17:27:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA16729; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:27:43 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199809092025.QAA16437@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:27:53 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Full Collations or Samples? Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4255 On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jean-Francois Racine wrote: >I would like to read the opinion of the members of the list on the >following question: These are immense and difficult questions, which have resulted in extended arguments on this list in the past. You probably need to consult the relevant literature (e.g. Colwell, Ehrman, Hurtado, Wisse) and then decide for yourself. >Is that technically possible to fully collate manuscripts (i.e., computing >all variation units) or one still has to proceed from samples (as large as >possible)? It is not presently possible to fully collate *all* manuscripts. Not with six thousand of them to deal with. It will not become possible, I believe, until computers can be trained to do the collating -- and, based on the fact that we are approaching the practical limit of how small a transistor can be, I do not believe that computers will ever be able to collate reliably without human intervention. But if the question is, *should* we collate all units of variation, or can we use samples, the point is disputed. Some on this list -- e.g., I think, Hurtado -- will argue that it is better to collate all variants in a limited number of manuscripts. I frankly disagree. Better to use sampling and study larger numbers of manuscripts. This at least allows us a proper set of variant readings for discussion. It should be noted, however, that I reject the often-quoted Colwell definition of a text-type. Also, most work in this field is not mathematically rigorous. These questions cannot be answered until a full set of rigorous definitions is offered. To date, there has been no rigorous work (to my knowledge) on this subject. >Without the use of automatic collation by computers, the full collation of >mss against each other appears to me a life long task. Yet, the automatic >collation by computers assumes that the text of mss exists in electronic >format. How often is it the case? Not often enough. :-) Sample readings for the vast majority of manuscripts are on file at the Munster Institute. (Though I understand that that data is stored in a mainframe database and is not really usable at this time.) However, the number of complete collations in electronic form is very slight. It's dull work, after all -- and we are not helped by the fact that there is no universally accepted standard for transcribing Greek. >In addition, what does mean exactly collating all variation units? Does it >include itacisms, nu-movable, non-sense readings, orthographic errors, >etc.? One can question the significance of these types of variants >although they are, strictly speaking, variants. This is another question that is the source of great difficulty. Richards "proved" that these readings were of little significance (I place "proved" in quotes because his proof, like so much other work in this field, is not rigorous. I believe he is correct -- but he hasn't *proved* it). There has been much discussion in recent years of what constitutes a variant; the best discussion, I believe, is in Epp & Fee. You might also look at how Zuntz deals with this matter -- but his method is too labourious to be useful in practice. Bibliography: Ernest C. Colwell, _Studied in Methodology in Textual Criticism of the New Testament_, Eerdmans, 1969 Bart D. Ehrman, _Didymus the Blind and the Text of the Gospels_, Scholars Press, 1986 Eldon J. Epp & Gordon D. Fee, _Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism_, Eerdmans, 1993 Larry W. Hurtado, _Text-Critical Methodology and the Pre-Caesarean Text: Codex W in the Gospel of Mark_, Eerdmans, 1981 W. L. Richards, _The Classification of the Greek Manuscripts of the Johannine Epistles_, SBL, 1977 Frederik Wisse, _The Profile Method for Classifying and Evaluating Manuscript Evidence_, Eerdmans, 1982 G. Zuntz, _The Text of the Epistles_, Oxford University Press, 1953 -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Sep 9 18:23:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA16999; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:23:20 -0400 From: "Perry L. Stepp" To: Subject: tc-list I did a collation once (was: Full Collations or Samples?) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:29:49 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bddc38$f9b65f80$79751ed1@plstepp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199809092025.QAA16437@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2023 Hello, all. In the spring of 1997, I collated 43 verses of Matthew, for the purpose of subjecting that collation to quantitative analysis, ala Colwell, Hurtado, etc. (I did it for a seminar in textual criticism, of course, and received the expected grade of A). I chose Mt 26.1-43, because it was the one place in the editions available from Swanson where four papyri from the third and second centuries (p37, p45, p53, and p64+67) "clustered" and at times overlapped. To keep the project managable, I took all kinds of shortcuts. I used Swanson's edition of the Gospel of Matthew, which I checked against Tischendorf. I limited the sample to nine benchmark texts plus the OL in support of D (in addition to the papyri), which represented the accepted textual types. I basically followed Colwell's methodology for such work--limiting collation to meaningful variants, eliminating singular readings from consideration. The collation of these 43 verses, even with the shortcuts, took about 20 hours of headsplitting, eyebursting work. I'll probably never do that kind of work again--unless there was money in it, of course (money for textual criticism! HA!) Not many people want to do this kind of work by hand, and there's a reason. It's HARD. It's painful. But it's also important--can we attempt to reconstruct a history of the transmission of the text without subjecting the entire NT to such analysis? And it needs to be done by hand--I don't think a computer can be programmed to do it properly, it involves making too many judgements on the fly. That's my .02 worth. PLStepp ***************************************************************** Pastor, DeSoto Christian Church, DeSoto TX Ph.D. Candidate in Religion, Baylor University #1 Cowboy Fan Keeper of the Top-10, news://alt.fan.letterman It is tremendous folly to put trashy people in positions of trust and conspicuousness. --George Will, 6 August 1998 ***************************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 10 05:34:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA19811; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:34:27 -0400 From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:34:07 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Full Collations or Samples? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199809092025.QAA16437@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01a) Message-ID: <289D5AB4C9A@div.ed.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1681 Jean-Francois Racine asks: > Without the use of automatic collation by computers, the full collation of > mss against each other appears to me a life long task. Yet, the automatic > collation by computers assumes that the text of mss exists in electronic > format. How often is it the case? The answer is "not very often". There are some efforts to prepare machine- readable transcriptions of NT mss, but this effort requires the same commodity as collation: *lots* of person-hours, and *very* carefully done work! > > In addition, what does mean exactly collating all variation units? Does it > include itacisms, nu-movable, non-sense readings, orthographic errors, > etc.? One can question the significance of these types of variants > although they are, strictly speaking, variants. I think we have to ask "collation of variation units for what questions/purpose?". I have collated & compared variation in mss for the pupose of trying to find mss- relationships, toward the larger question of textual history. For such purposes, itacisms, & minor spelling variations are not relevant, hence not significant. They tell us other interesting things (e.g., about how words were spelled by this or that scribe at this or that time in this or that place, about how much variation there was in such matters, about whether a given scribe was very trained & careful or not), but not about ms -relationships, for which we need to examine variants that are likely to have some sort of genetic relationship. L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 10 09:54:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20487; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:53:58 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Glen Thompson" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:56:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list I did a collation once X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Glen Thompson" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000001bddc38$f9b65f80$79751ed1@plstepp> References: <199809092025.QAA16437@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19980910085656.0c1ae998.in@mailhost.mlc-wels.edu> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1675 As far as what it would take to do complete collations, I offer the following rough data. This past summer I conducted a course in collating NT mss. Each student was taught basic collating procedures and then given a microfilm of a minuscule ms. with the assignment to collate John. The results went to the IGNTP. I asked each student to keep track of how long it took. The time it took to collate John (most did it by hand, two used the IGNTP computer program to record the data) varied from about 30-40 hours (these of course were beginners). I did a minuscule at the same time myself, (a rogue ms. it turned out with c. 1200 variants in Joihn alone!) and it took me 40 hours (though I have done others in 25-30). Thus if one estimates 3000 majuscules and minuscules at an average of 30 hours each, one arrives at a need for 90,000 man hours. Since the IGNTP practice of collating each ms. thrice is a sound one, that brings us to 270,000 hours, not counting lectionaries and versions. Divide this by 50 40-hour work weeks and you might estimate 135 scholars working for a year or 3 working for 45 yrs. just to do the continuous Greek mss. of John's Gospel. I, too, think computers are not the answer (yet, at least). Thus the only answers in our lifetime are 1) be selective on the mss. used; 2) be selective on the passages collated; or 3) "convert" more students and colleagues to the joy and importantce of collating. However, having spent thousands of hours collating Greek and Latin texts, I have to admit it is not the most exciting or well-rewarded work in the realm of biblical scholarship. Glen Thompson Martin Luther College From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Sep 10 23:29:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA23350; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:29:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199809110321.UAA29253@mail-01.telis.org> Subject: tc-list OT Syriac Peshitta Critical Apparatus Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 20:33:48 -0800 x-sender: sohncom@mail-01.telis.org x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Dexter Garnier To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 848 Dear TC- List, I would appreciate any assistance with a question I have about the critical apparatus for Ex. 3:14 in _The Old Testament In Syriac According to the Peshitta Version_ Part I, fascicle i, Brill, 1997. The apparatus for Ex 3:14 reads: _14 )HYH 2o] om 'alaph ....(a list of mss. here)_ The symbol after the 2 (the *o*) is superscript. Does this mean that in this variant, for the second )HYH, the 'alaph is omitted in the mss. listed, or that a second hand has omitted the 'alaph or.........??? I have checked the Preface and the Introduction several times w/o success. The first time that kind of notation occurs is in the Introduction on p. vii, paragraph 5. The Preface has on pages xii-xiii, a list of abbreviations and signs but I do not see this particular notation listed. Thanks! Dexter Garnier San Francisco, CA From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 05:10:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA24864; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:10:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:10:42 -0400 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Collations To: tc list Message-ID: <199809110510_MC2-591B-3FE7@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1412 Hi, L. W. Hurtado says >I think we have to ask "collation of variation units for what questions/purpose?". = >I have collated & compared variation in mss for the pupose of trying to find mss- >relationships, toward the larger question of textual history. For such purposes, = >itacisms, & minor spelling variations are not relevant, hence not significant. = >They tell us other interesting things (e.g., about how words were spelle= d by this = >or that scribe at this or that time in this or that place, about how muc= h variation = >there was in such matters, about whether a given scribe was very trained= & >careful or not), but not about ms -relationships, for which we need to examine = >variants that are likely to have some sort of genetic relationship. If our collations are to be entered into a data base (and I = sincerely hope they will be) they then will be essential tools for = scholars in the future whose areas of interest we do not yet know. = Then I believe it is essential that we put into our collations and apparatii as much detail as possible. This includes itacisms, = minor spelling variations and sacred names. It is very easy for a computer to filter out information that is not required by the researcher, but if we do not put it there from the beginning, then future textual critics may face serious problems. Regards Mike Bossingham University of Birmingham. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 09:00:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25484; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:00:48 -0400 Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:02:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19980911130200.14749.qmail@findmail.com> From: "Wieland Willker" Subject: Re: tc-list Quality of fragment photos In-Reply-To: <1722D3D23A3@alf3.ngate.uni-regensburg.de> To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 882 > Unfortunately, I do not agree with you about the quality of the photos > contained in Thiede=B4s and D=B4Ancona=B4s "popular bestseller" about the > Magdalen fragments. Despite the requested and among papyrologists and > palaeographers undisputed method of publishing a papyrus, the tiny Qumran > fragment 7Q5 as well as the Magdalen fragments are reproduced with a deep > blue background. But only a white background enables the observer to > distinguish between holes in a papyrus and ink blots. Hallo Thomas, you are right on everything. What I meant was just the quality of the photography ITSELF not its presentation (and manipulation). About requesting photos from the British Museum, I have not much hope... Best wishes Wieland ----- Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/tc-list/?start=4489 Start a FREE email list at http://www.FindMail.com/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 09:02:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25511; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:02:08 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199809110510_MC2-591B-3FE7@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:02:46 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Collations Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2261 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Mike Bossingham wrote: >If our collations are to be entered into a data base (and I >sincerely hope they will be) they then will be essential tools for >scholars in the future whose areas of interest we do not yet know. > >Then I believe it is essential that we put into our collations and >apparatii as much detail as possible. This includes itacisms, >minor spelling variations and sacred names. > >It is very easy for a computer to filter out information that is >not required by the researcher, but if we do not put it there from the >beginning, then future textual critics may face serious problems. This is a good argument, but I wonder about its practicality. First there is the problem of doing the collation. But there is another problem: handling all the data involved. Keeping track of, say, nu-movables will significantly increase the effort of entering the collation into the computer -- and the resulting size of the database. This is not a trivial problem. I won't claim to have exact data on this, but I recall that the Lakes' collation of 1739 typically had about four chapters per page. Given the amount of white space on the page, I'd estimate that as 100 words per page, or 25 words per chapter, or roughly 1/6 of a kilobyte per chapter per manuscript. Admittedly 1739 has more than the usual number of departures from the Textus Receptus -- but this is in Paul, where variations are relatively few. Even Byzantine manuscripts, I suspect, will have about that many deviations in the Gospels. Assume the typical manuscript contains the equivalent of 100 chapters. That's 17KB per manuscript. Now multiply by 5000 manuscripts. That's 85000K=85 megabytes. *Big* database. And that's the raw data. Overhead, with most programs, is double that. 170 MB. While many databases can handle files that size, the thing is going to be slow and difficult to handle. I don't think we can afford to deal with all the extra data. Perhaps our paper collations should include all the data. But at this time we don't have the computing power to handle all the trivial variants. Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 09:20:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25626; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:20:47 -0400 Message-ID: <003086DDAD30D211842F00062B0006E11B71A0@esusa.esusa.org> From: Curt Niccum To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list OT Syriac Peshitta Critical Apparatus Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:20:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1179 It indicates that the listed mss omit alaph in the second occurrence of the word in that verse. -----Original Message----- From: Dexter Garnier [SMTP:sohncom@telis.org] Sent: Thursday, September 10, 1998 11:34 PM To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list OT Syriac Peshitta Critical Apparatus Dear TC- List, I would appreciate any assistance with a question I have about the critical apparatus for Ex. 3:14 in _The Old Testament In Syriac According to the Peshitta Version_ Part I, fascicle i, Brill, 1997. The apparatus for Ex 3:14 reads: _14 )HYH 2o] om 'alaph ....(a list of mss. here)_ The symbol after the 2 (the *o*) is superscript. Does this mean that in this variant, for the second )HYH, the 'alaph is omitted in the mss. listed, or that a second hand has omitted the 'alaph or.........??? I have checked the Preface and the Introduction several times w/o success. The first time that kind of notation occurs is in the Introduction on p. vii, paragraph 5. The Preface has on pages xii-xiii, a list of abbreviations and signs but I do not see this particular notation listed. Thanks! Dexter Garnier San Francisco, CA From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 09:38:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25736; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:38:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199809111339.GAA23602@smtp.northlink.com> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:30:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Collations Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <199809110510_MC2-591B-3FE7@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3013 Bob Waltz wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Mike Bossingham > wrote: > > >If our collations are to be entered into a data base (and I > >sincerely hope they will be) they then will be essential tools for > >scholars in the future whose areas of interest we do not yet know. > > > >Then I believe it is essential that we put into our collations and > >apparatii as much detail as possible. This includes itacisms, > >minor spelling variations and sacred names. > > > >It is very easy for a computer to filter out information that is > >not required by the researcher, but if we do not put it there from the > >beginning, then future textual critics may face serious problems. > > This is a good argument, but I wonder about its practicality. First > there is the problem of doing the collation. But there is another > problem: handling all the data involved. Keeping track of, say, > nu-movables will significantly increase the effort of entering > the collation into the computer -- and the resulting size of > the database. > > This is not a trivial problem. I won't claim to have exact data > on this, but I recall that the Lakes' collation of 1739 typically > had about four chapters per page. Given the amount of white space > on the page, I'd estimate that as 100 words per page, or 25 > words per chapter, or roughly 1/6 of a kilobyte per chapter per > manuscript. Admittedly 1739 has more than the usual number of > departures from the Textus Receptus -- but this is in Paul, > where variations are relatively few. Even Byzantine manuscripts, > I suspect, will have about that many deviations in the Gospels. > > Assume the typical manuscript contains the equivalent of 100 > chapters. That's 17KB per manuscript. > > Now multiply by 5000 manuscripts. That's 85000K=85 megabytes. > *Big* database. And that's the raw data. Overhead, with > most programs, is double that. 170 MB. > > While many databases can handle files that size, the thing > is going to be slow and difficult to handle. I don't think > we can afford to deal with all the extra data. Perhaps our > paper collations should include all the data. But at this > time we don't have the computing power to handle all the > trivial variants. This may have been true once, but I don't think it is any more. There are already databases bigger than this around, and with the right query language and a strong database engine, they are easily manageable. Some of the medical databases already on the Net are at least this size, and then of course there's the good ol' search engine AltaVista, which indexes God-knows-how-many-million- by-now web pages, and is definitely not slow. The databases in the Logos Library System software are at least as big as what you describe here, and they work great. Fact is, 170 meg isn't that big any more, and anything above a P100 can run circles around it. Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur When in doubt, go for chocolate. Life is too short not to. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 10:22:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA25939; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:21:57 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199809111339.GAA23602@smtp.northlink.com> References: <199809110510_MC2-591B-3FE7@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:22:59 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Collations Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1927 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, "Dave Washburn" wrote: >This may have been true once, but I don't think it is any more. >There are already databases bigger than this around, and with the >right query language and a strong database engine, they are easily >manageable. Some of the medical databases already on the Net are at >least this size, and then of course there's the good ol' search >engine AltaVista, which indexes God-knows-how-many-million- >by-now web pages, and is definitely not slow. The databases in the >Logos Library System software are at least as big as what you >describe here, and they work great. Fact is, 170 meg isn't that big >any more, and anything above a P100 can run circles around it. Not sure this is worth pursuing, but I'm going to make a brief stab at clarifying. The 170 MB is without the extraneous data of itacisms and nu-movables and such. If Richards is right (and my memory of Richards is right :-), variants of this sort are about three times as frequent as the "meaningful" ones. So toss them in and we get something on the order of 700 megabytes. Now it's all very well to say that this, that, or the other machine can handle a database that size. It's usually true on paper -- e.g. I have one that can handle a 4 GB file. But that generally refers to flat databases -- the name, address, keyword type. A database of variants will *not* fit that model. It won't be indexable, for instance. The only way to make it indexable is to include complete text of all the manuscripts, and that's not going to fit in any 170 MB -- or 4GB, either. Until someone can come up with a clever database structure (and I concede someone may have, but I haven't heard of it), we need to keep the amount of data as small as possible. So, no trivial variants. Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 14:28:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA27289; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:28:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:29:42 -0400 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Collations To: tc list Message-ID: <199809111429_MC2-592E-1E2A@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 922 Hi Bob, Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA28071; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:15:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:14:33 -0400 From: Ian H Thain Subject: Re: tc-list Collations To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199809111714_MC2-5937-613C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 640 Dear TC-ers, On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Bob Waltz wrote: >So, no trivial variants. As a lurker on this list I should not normally presume to comment on the discussion, = but as a software engineer I have to say I'm with Mike Billingham on this= =2E Database size simply isn't an issue today, and a custom RDBMS can be written by any competant programmer to do whatever you want. (I've made a good living = at it for years, and when I started in the industry I had 4k RAM and hard= disks = weren't invented). = So pitch in with your variants, no matter how trivial. History will be grateful! Ian H Thain Software Engineer Banbury, UK. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Sep 11 17:27:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA28156; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:27:24 -0400 X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199809111429_MC2-592E-1E2A@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:27:02 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Collations Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3291 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Mike Bossingham wrote: >Hi Bob, > >