From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 4 06:26:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA27019; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:26:02 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01be1f78$9d22e940$8c15b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de> From: "Ulrich Schmid" To: Subject: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:22:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1F80.D3C91C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4194 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1F80.D3C91C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recently I came accross various references to 0171 either stating that = "(t)here is too little space for the words 'And going out he wept = bitterly' (sc. Lk 22:62) to have been present in the manuscript" (D. = Parker, The Living Text of the Gospels, p. 160), or indicating that even = Aland conjectured the omission of that very verse (cf. Swanson, New = Testament Greek Manuscripts - Luke, ad locum). Additionally, the new = edition of Metzger's _Textual Commentary (1994)_ still presents as = evidence for the omission 0171vid, while in NA-27 the reference 0171vid = is gone. This is a puzzling situation. The following questions come to = mind: 1) What do we find in GNT-4? Unfortunately, I cannot check it right = now... 2) Are there any new studies on 0171 after K.Aland, Alter und Entstehung = des D-Textes im Neuen Testament. Betrachtungen zu P 69 und 0171; = Miscellania Papirologica Ramon Roca-Puig (Barcelona 1987) representing = something of a consensus regarding 0171's testimony for Lk 22:62? 3) What might be the exact meaning of Swanson's "(Lk 22:)62 om. 0171 = (Aland cj.)"?=20 a) The conjecture was proposed by Aland?, or b) it is found in an edition somehow related with Aland?, or c) ??? So far it's a puzzle to me, since Aland holds the opposite position in = his above mentioned article.=20 Any comments? Thanks in advance. Ulrich Schmid =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1F80.D3C91C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Recently I came accross various = references=20 to  0171 either stating that "(t)here is too little space for = the=20 words 'And going out he wept bitterly' (sc. Lk 22:62) to have been = present in=20 the manuscript" (D. Parker, The Living Text of the Gospels, p. = 160), or=20 indicating that even Aland conjectured the omission of that very verse = (cf.=20 Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts - Luke, ad locum). = Additionally, the=20 new edition of Metzger's _Textual Commentary (1994)_ still presents as = evidence=20 for the omission 0171vid, while in NA-27 the reference 0171vid is gone. = This is=20 a puzzling situation. The following questions come to mind:
 
1) What do we find in GNT-4? = Unfortunately, I=20 cannot check it right now...
 
2) Are there any new studies on 0171 = after=20 K.Aland, Alter und Entstehung des D-Textes im Neuen Testament. = Betrachtungen zu=20 P 69 und 0171; Miscellania Papirologica Ramon Roca-Puig (Barcelona 1987) = representing something of a consensus regarding 0171's testimony for Lk=20 22:62?
 
3) What might be the exact meaning = of Swanson's=20 "(Lk 22:)62 om. 0171 (Aland cj.)"? 
a) The conjecture was proposed by = Aland?,=20 or
b) it is found in an edition somehow = related=20 with Aland?, or
c) = ???
So far it's a puzzle to me, since Aland holds the = opposite=20 position in his above mentioned article.
 
Any comments? Thanks in advance.
 
Ulrich Schmid
 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE1F80.D3C91C00-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 4 09:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA27759; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:40:19 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981204094312.007f5480@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: scarlson@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:43:12 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, From: "Stephen C. Carlson" Subject: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 In-Reply-To: <001e01be1f78$9d22e940$8c15b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1144 At 12:22 PM 12/4/98 +0100, Ulrich Schmid wrote: >This is a puzzling situation. The following questions come to mind: > >1) What do we find in GNT-4? Unfortunately, I cannot check it right now... My copy of GNT-4 under Lk22:62 says "... omit verse 62 0171vid it^(a, b, e, ff2, i, l, r1)" aside from formatting that I cannot reproduce. >2) Are there any new studies on 0171 after K.Aland, Alter und Entstehung >des D-Textes im Neuen Testament. Betrachtungen zu P 69 und 0171; >Miscellania Papirologica Ramon Roca-Puig (Barcelona 1987) representing >something of a consensus regarding 0171's testimony for Lk 22:62? >3) What might be the exact meaning of Swanson's "(Lk 22:)62 om. 0171 (Aland cj.)"? >a) The conjecture was proposed by Aland?, or >b) it is found in an edition somehow related with Aland?, or >c) ??? My copy of Aland's 1964 Synopsis lists "vs 0171 it" in favor of the omission. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@mindspring.com Synoptic Problem Home Page http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/ "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Dec 5 04:38:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA04007; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 04:38:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:41:19 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199812050941.KAA29036@mail1.mclink.it> X-Sender: mc2499@mclink.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Ian Hutchesson Subject: tc-list Nazareth, not Nazara Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 326 Hello! I wonder if anyone could tell me of the earliest attestations for the use of Nazareth in the gospel tradition? (I have just been informed of Julius Africanus's use of Nazara cited in Eusebius 1.7, and find it quite puzzling that that form should survive into Julius's times.) Ian Ian Hutchesson mc2499@mclink.it From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 8 02:53:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA16930; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 02:53:03 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981208015618.00ba1f34@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 01:56:18 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Shem-Tob & Qumran Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 7685 All, An old rumor about the Shem-Tob Hebrew text of Matthew seems to be circulating again, and it seems I am destined to set things straight. The rumor is that a Hebrew version of Matthew has been found at Qumran. The full-blown version of the rumor claims that the Shem-Tob Hebrew version of Matthew originally came from Evan Bohan at Qumran. The source of the rumor is an article that appeared in Vendyl Jones' Institute of Judaic-Christian RESEARCHER newsletter Dec. 1991: FROM PAGE 10: Now comes the question of an ancient manuscript of the book of Matthew called the Even Bohan Text. It is also called the Shem-Tov text. George Howard, Professor of Religion at the University of Georgia, published a book on this text by Mercer University press in 1987. There are several copies of this text around, but gaining access to the original text of Evan Bohan without revision is impossible. Paleographic specialists have dated the original in the last quarter of the first century C.E. The letter styles are the same as the Qumran so-called secular scrolls. Modern scholarship, however, attempting to attribute the scroll to Ben-Tov himself who was active between 1350 and 1400 C.E.... ...Why would Ben-Tov use a paleographic style of the Qumran period to write a text in the middle ages? Why is that original not available? Why do all the editors say that there are numerous mistakes that they had to correct? Why do the editors not just publish the text and let the public see the original? Why must they "doctor it up" and add entire sections? For example, the Evan Bohan text does not contain the first two chapters of Matthew. Does this not perhaps relate to Jerome's statement concerning the Ebionites who follow only Matthew's gospel and reject Paul's writings altogether? Is that original Even Bohan text perhaps the Ebionite document of Matthew which Jerome said was without the first two chapters?... ...why is the Ben-Tov gospel of Matthew called the Even Bohan text? Is it not logical to assume that it was found at Even Bohan?... FROM PAGE 15 ...Now, let's look back to the Even Bohan text of Matthew. To summarize, the first observation is that the Ben-Tov/Even Bohan text did not contain the first two chapters of Matthew. Like Mark, it opens with the ministry of John the Baptist, or Yochanan Ben-Zachai. That means that the classic marginal notation, "Omitted by more ancient authorities." really means, "This passage was added later by the monks." That is to say that the monks monkeyed with the text. All the revised forms of the Even Bohan/Ben-Tov texts are admittedly filled in by the editors because so much was missing that is in "our" Matthew.... OK now let me set the story straight. To begin with I have nothing against Vendyl Jones personally. In fact I have known Vendyl for over ten years. However in this case I have to disagree with some things Vendyl has said. 1. No published paleographic analysis of any Shem-Tob manuscript has concluded that the text is written in any Qumran type script. I have examined a photograph of at least one manuscript page of a Shem Tob manuscript and it is written in the same script as the DuTillet Hebrew manuscript of Matthew (which I have a complete facsimile of), a script common to the middleages. Vendyl asks why Shem-Tob would use a Qumran script. No one knows what scrpt Shem-Tob himself used because his original manuscript is lost to history, only copies of it remain to us. 2. Shem-Tob's Matthew manuscript was not called "Evan Bohan." Shem-Tob wrote a polemic treaty against Christianity (or perhaps the Nazarenes) in one part of this book he transcribed the entire text of Hebrew Matthew, in sections, each section followed by a polemic against it. The term "Evan Bohan" was the title of the entire Polemic book and not just of the text of Matthew which Shem-Tobe transcribed in sections in just one part of that book. 3. I am unaware of any extant Shem Tob text which lacks the first two chapters of Matthew. George Howard did not add them. If a later editor altered Shem Tob's original work in this way, then he also mangaed to alter it so early on that not one manuscript exists which was coppied from a text which lacked the first two chapters of Matthew. I can only conclude that Vendyl believes that the text Shem Tob held was the original of Matthew and that Vendyl also believes that Matthew originally lacked the first two chapters, so Vendyl has perhaps assumed that the Hebrew copy Shem Tob had must have lacked them as well. However there is no evidence that the Hebrew Shem Tob text at any stage lacked the first two chapters of Matthew. 3. Jerome did not say that the original Hebrew Matthew used by the Ebionites lacked the first two chapters. Jerome did mention having a Hebrew Matthew which he often identified with the Goodnews according to the Hebrews, but he claimed to have obtained it from the Nazarenes, not the Ebionites, and he in fact quoted from its first two chapters. Vendyl must be thinking of Epiphanius who quotes from an Ebionite text of the Gospel according to the Hebrews also identified with the original of Matthew. Epiphanius does quote this text as beginning with the ministry of Yochanan (John the Baptist) however he also says that this Ebionite text "is not altogether complete, but adultrated and mutilated" However of the Nazarene Hebrew version of Mathew he says that they have it "quite complete in the Hebrew." 4. There are no editors that admit altering or adding to the Shem-Tob text (although Munster admits doing this with the Munster Hebrew Matthew text in places where his copy was damaged, but that was not a Shem-Tob text). George Howard did not add anything. The only editors before this were scribes in the middle ages, and if they added two chapters there is no record of it. 5. Vendyl asks "Why is the original not available?" - The original of what? The Original of Shem-Tob's book Evan Bohan was lost centuries ago. There was no effort by Shem-Tob to preserve his Hebrew manuscript of Matthew except by copying it into his book. The original is unavailable because it has been lost for centuries. While I think Vendyl is mistaken about some of these things let me add: 1. I would love for him to be right, at least about a Qumran origin for Shem Tob's Matthew. 2. I have nothing against Vendyl. In this case I just think he got some facts wrong and presented some of his theories as if they were established facts. 3. I continue to believe that Shem Tob is an important Hebrew text representing a descendant from the original Hebrew and would be interested in any data supporting Vendyl's claims that may be forthcoming. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA http://www.nazarene.net A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy, Sabbatarian & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Essene Forum: Essene website, listserver & links: http://www.nazarene.net/essene/essene_forum.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 8 07:47:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18229; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:47:40 -0500 From: "DC PARKER" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:51:02 GMT Subject: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001e01be1f78$9d22e940$8c15b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de> Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 711 There is ana rticle by J.N. Birdsall, 'A fresh examination of the fragments of the gospel of St. Luke in ms. 0171 and an attempted reconstruction with special reference to the recto', "Philologische Sacra" (F/S H.J. Frede & W. Thiele), ed. R. Gryson, Freiburg 1993, 212-227. He presents the evidence which led me to be so definite in my statement in "The Living Text of the Gospels". He also provides an account of different views which explains the confusion to which our attention has been drawn. David Parker DR DC PARKER READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 8 10:05:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA18724; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:05:19 -0500 Message-ID: <366D4637.D35E80DE@historian.net> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:31:03 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu CC: textcrit@nazarene.net Subject: Re: tc-list Shem-Tob & Qumran References: <3.0.3.32.19981208015618.00ba1f34@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4441 James Trimm wrote: > > All, > > An old rumor about the Shem-Tob Hebrew text of Matthew seems to be > circulating again, and it seems I am destined to set things straight. > > The rumor is that a Hebrew version of Matthew has been found at Qumran. > The full-blown version of the rumor claims that the Shem-Tob Hebrew version > of Matthew originally came from Evan Bohan at Qumran. > > The source of the rumor is an article that appeared in Vendyl Jones' > Institute of Judaic-Christian RESEARCHER newsletter Dec. 1991: > > FROM PAGE 10: > > Now comes the question of an ancient manuscript of the > book of Matthew called the Even Bohan Text. It is also > called the Shem-Tov text. George Howard, Professor of > Religion at the University of Georgia, published a book > on this text by Mercer University press in 1987. There > are several copies of this text around, but gaining access > to the original text of Evan Bohan without revision is > impossible. Paleographic specialists have dated the > original in the last quarter of the first century C.E. > The letter styles are the same as the Qumran so-called > secular scrolls. Modern scholarship, however, attempting > to attribute the scroll to Ben-Tov himself who was > active between 1350 and 1400 C.E.... > > ...Why would Ben-Tov use a paleographic style of > the Qumran period to write a text in the middle ages? > Why is that original not available? Why do all the editors > say that there are numerous mistakes that they had > to correct? Why do the editors not just publish the > text and let the public see the original? Why must > they "doctor it up" and add entire sections? For example, > the Evan Bohan text does not contain the first two > chapters of Matthew. Does this not perhaps relate > to Jerome's statement concerning the Ebionites who > follow only Matthew's gospel and reject Paul's writings > altogether? Is that original Even Bohan text perhaps > the Ebionite document of Matthew which Jerome said > was without the first two chapters?... > > ...why is the Ben-Tov gospel of Matthew called the > Even Bohan text? Is it not logical to assume that it > was found at Even Bohan?... > > FROM PAGE 15 > > ...Now, let's look back to the Even Bohan text of Matthew. > To summarize, the first observation is that the Ben-Tov/Even > Bohan text did not contain the first two chapters of Matthew. > Like Mark, it opens with the ministry of John the Baptist, > or Yochanan Ben-Zachai. That means that the classic > marginal notation, "Omitted by more ancient authorities." > really means, "This passage was added later by the monks." > That is to say that the monks monkeyed with the text. > All the revised forms of the Even Bohan/Ben-Tov texts > are admittedly filled in by the editors because so much > was missing that is in "our" Matthew.... > > OK now let me set the story straight. To begin with I have nothing against > Vendyl Jones personally. In fact I have known Vendyl for over ten years. > However in this case I have to disagree with some things Vendyl has said. I don't know Vendyl Jones personally and have always considered his publications kind of "fun stuff" but I have to be a lot stronger than "disagree" with this article. There is absolutely no excuse for the fantasy of this "National-Enquirer" type of article where nearly every sentence is a distortion, untruth, absurdity or downright invention. Dr. Jones accepts donations of money from the public for his projects and even though I consider expeditions to find Noah's Ark as silly, Dr. Jones has made some interesting archaeological finds in Israel. Since Dr. Jones uses public funds, he is obligated, IMO, for much better than the above "comic-book" style of writing. He really needs to come out and disavow articles like this so that many of us wont get the impression he is the Jimmy Swaggart/ Jimmy Bakker of "Biblical archaeology." Jack -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 8 12:49:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA19867; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:49:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199812081752.MAA63772@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> X-Sender: wlp1@mail.psu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:48:14 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "William L. Petersen" Subject: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 In-Reply-To: References: <001e01be1f78$9d22e940$8c15b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 945 Thank you, David. As usual, a mastery of the bibliography is the first step to both properly defining a problem and then solving it. --Petersen, Penn State University. At 12:51 PM 12/8/98 +0000, you wrote: >There is ana rticle by J.N. Birdsall, 'A fresh examination of the >fragments of the gospel of St. Luke in ms. 0171 and an attempted >reconstruction with special reference to the recto', "Philologische >Sacra" (F/S H.J. Frede & W. Thiele), ed. R. Gryson, Freiburg 1993, >212-227. > >He presents the evidence which led me to be so definite in my >statement in "The Living Text of the Gospels". He also provides an >account of different views which explains the confusion to which our >attention has been drawn. > >David Parker > > >DR DC PARKER >READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY >DEPT OF THEOLOGY >UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM >TEL. 0121-414 3613 >FAX 0121-414 6866 >E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 9 09:13:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00393; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:13:28 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981208203859.00ea2538@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:38:59 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Shem-Tob & Qumran Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 10931 >Mailing-List: contact roots-owner@egroups.com >X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/roots/ >X-Mailing-List: roots@egroups.com >Reply-To: roots@egroups.com >Delivered-To: listsaver-findlist-roots@makelist.com >X-Sender: jdtabor@email.uncc.edu >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) >Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 21:03:14 -0500 >To: roots@egroups.com, roots@makelist.com >From: "James D. Tabor" >Subject: [roots] Re: Shem-Tob & Qumran > >Good post James Trimm, > >I too was sorry to see this issue of VJ bulletin and how he was playing so >fast and loose with the facts. I would add one IMPORTANT point...Even >Bohan and Even BoCHan are NOT even the same words in Hebrew... > >One is a place name from Joshua 15:6, and is the Stone of BOCHAN (spelled >with a Chet) the name of a person, son of Reuben, but also meaning >THUMB...and that marker indeed looks like a thumb sticking up, just north >of Qumran...Maybe the guy was tall and called "the thumb" as a knickname, >and the rock got his name. > >The other word is Even Bohan (spelled with a Hey), the Smooth Stone or >touchstone (used in Isa 28:16), an entirely different word. > >To confuse the two is like maintaining that the words "car"and "cat" are >the same in English...after all, only one letter difference!! > >James Tabor > >You are welcome to post this where ever you like... > >At 01:09 AM 12/8/98 -0600, James Trimm wrote: >> >>All, >> >> An old rumor about the Shem-Tob Hebrew text of Matthew seems to be >>circulating again, and it seems I am destined to set things straight. >> >> The rumor is that a Hebrew version of Matthew has been found at Qumran. >>The full-blown version of the rumor claims that the Shem-Tob Hebrew version >>of Matthew originally came from Evan Bohan at Qumran. >> >> The source of the rumor is an article that appeared in Vendyl Jones' >>Institute of Judaic-Christian RESEARCHER newsletter Dec. 1991: >> >> FROM PAGE 10: >> >> Now comes the question of an ancient manuscript of the >> book of Matthew called the Even Bohan Text. It is also >> called the Shem-Tov text. George Howard, Professor of >> Religion at the University of Georgia, published a book >> on this text by Mercer University press in 1987. There >> are several copies of this text around, but gaining access >> to the original text of Evan Bohan without revision is >> impossible. Paleographic specialists have dated the >> original in the last quarter of the first century C.E. >> The letter styles are the same as the Qumran so-called >> secular scrolls. Modern scholarship, however, attempting >> to attribute the scroll to Ben-Tov himself who was >> active between 1350 and 1400 C.E.... >> >> ...Why would Ben-Tov use a paleographic style of >> the Qumran period to write a text in the middle ages? >> Why is that original not available? Why do all the editors >> say that there are numerous mistakes that they had >> to correct? Why do the editors not just publish the >> text and let the public see the original? Why must >> they "doctor it up" and add entire sections? For example, >> the Evan Bohan text does not contain the first two >> chapters of Matthew. Does this not perhaps relate >> to Jerome's statement concerning the Ebionites who >> follow only Matthew's gospel and reject Paul's writings >> altogether? Is that original Even Bohan text perhaps >> the Ebionite document of Matthew which Jerome said >> was without the first two chapters?... >> >> ...why is the Ben-Tov gospel of Matthew called the >> Even Bohan text? Is it not logical to assume that it >> was found at Even Bohan?... >> >> FROM PAGE 15 >> >> ...Now, let's look back to the Even Bohan text of Matthew. >> To summarize, the first observation is that the Ben-Tov/Even >> Bohan text did not contain the first two chapters of Matthew. >> Like Mark, it opens with the ministry of John the Baptist, >> or Yochanan Ben-Zachai. That means that the classic >> marginal notation, "Omitted by more ancient authorities." >> really means, "This passage was added later by the monks." >> That is to say that the monks monkeyed with the text. >> All the revised forms of the Even Bohan/Ben-Tov texts >> are admittedly filled in by the editors because so much >> was missing that is in "our" Matthew.... >> >>OK now let me set the story straight. To begin with I have nothing against >>Vendyl Jones personally. In fact I have known Vendyl for over ten years. >>However in this case I have to disagree with some things Vendyl has said. >> >>1. No published paleographic analysis of any Shem-Tob manuscript has >>concluded that the text is written in any Qumran type script. I have >>examined a photograph of at least one manuscript page of a Shem Tob >>manuscript and it is written in the same script as the DuTillet Hebrew >>manuscript of Matthew (which I have a complete facsimile of), a script >>common to the middleages. Vendyl asks why Shem-Tob would use a Qumran >>script. No one knows what scrpt Shem-Tob himself used because his original >>manuscript is lost to history, only copies of it remain to us. >> >>2. Shem-Tob's Matthew manuscript was not called "Evan Bohan." Shem-Tob >>wrote a polemic treaty against Christianity (or perhaps the Nazarenes) in >>one part of this book he transcribed the entire text of Hebrew Matthew, in >>sections, each section followed by a polemic against it. The term "Evan >>Bohan" was the title of the entire Polemic book and not just of the text of >>Matthew which Shem-Tobe transcribed in sections in just one part of that >book. >> >>3. I am unaware of any extant Shem Tob text which lacks the first two >>chapters of Matthew. George Howard did not add them. If a later editor >>altered Shem Tob's original work in this way, then he also mangaed to alter >>it so early on that not one manuscript exists which was coppied from a text >>which lacked the first two chapters of Matthew. I can only conclude that >>Vendyl believes that the text Shem Tob held was the original of Matthew and >>that Vendyl also believes that Matthew originally lacked the first two >>chapters, so Vendyl has perhaps assumed that the Hebrew copy Shem Tob had >>must have lacked them as well. However there is no evidence that the >>Hebrew Shem Tob text at any stage lacked the first two chapters of Matthew. >> >>3. Jerome did not say that the original Hebrew Matthew used by the >>Ebionites lacked the first two chapters. Jerome did mention having a >>Hebrew Matthew which he often identified with the Goodnews according to the >>Hebrews, but he claimed to have obtained it from the Nazarenes, not the >>Ebionites, and he in fact quoted from its first two chapters. Vendyl must >>be thinking of Epiphanius who quotes from an Ebionite text of the Gospel >>according to the Hebrews also identified with the original of Matthew. >>Epiphanius does quote this text as beginning with the ministry of Yochanan >>(John the Baptist) however he also says that this Ebionite text "is not >>altogether complete, but adultrated and mutilated" However of the Nazarene >>Hebrew version of Mathew he says that they have it "quite complete in the >>Hebrew." >> >>4. There are no editors that admit altering or adding to the Shem-Tob text >>(although Munster admits doing this with the Munster Hebrew Matthew text in >>places where his copy was damaged, but that was not a Shem-Tob text). >>George Howard did not add anything. The only editors before this were >>scribes in the middle ages, and if they added two chapters there is no >>record of it. >> >>5. Vendyl asks "Why is the original not available?" - The original of >>what? The Original of Shem-Tob's book Evan Bohan was lost centuries ago. >>There was no effort by Shem-Tob to preserve his Hebrew manuscript of >>Matthew except by copying it into his book. The original is unavailable >>because it has been lost for centuries. >> >>While I think Vendyl is mistaken about some of these things let me add: >> >>1. I would love for him to be right, at least about a Qumran origin for >>Shem Tob's Matthew. >> >>2. I have nothing against Vendyl. In this case I just think he got some >>facts wrong and presented some of his theories as if they were established >>facts. >> >>3. I continue to believe that Shem Tob is an important Hebrew text >>representing a descendant from the original Hebrew and would be interested >>in any data supporting Vendyl's claims that may be forthcoming. >> >> >> >>James Trimm >>============================================== >>He who seeks will not cease until he finds, >>and having found he will be amazed, >>and having been amazed he will reign, >>and having reigned he will rest. >> - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews >>============================================== >>The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: >>PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA >>http://www.nazarene.net >>A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings >>============================================== >>E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; >>Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the >>New Testament; Prophecy, Sabbatarian & b-Aramaic. >>Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net >>============================================== >>Essene Forum: Essene website, listserver & links: >>http://www.nazarene.net/essene/essene_forum.htm >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Don't lose your email when you move, change jobs, or switch ISP's. >>Click here to get free and permanent email from NET@DDRESS! >>http://ads.egroups.com/click/154/0 >> >>Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't lose your email when you move, change jobs, or switch ISP's. >Click here to get free and permanent email from NET@DDRESS! >http://ads.egroups.com/click/156/0 > >Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com > > James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA http://www.nazarene.net A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy, Sabbatarian & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Essene Forum: Essene website, listserver & links: http://www.nazarene.net/essene/essene_forum.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 9 10:25:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00978; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:25:36 -0500 From: "DC PARKER" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:29:36 GMT Subject: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199812081752.MAA63772@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> References: Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 380 Dear Bill Quite. Good to see you in Mickie Mouseland. I thought that our debate was really valuable, because you were willing to be provocative - greatly enjoyed it. best wishes David DR DC PARKER READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 10 03:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA05397; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 03:14:07 -0500 Message-ID: <001001be2414$c2c3a4a0$b215b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de> From: "Ulrich Schmid" To: Subject: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:11:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail.uni-muenster.de id JAA315204 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1136 Thanks a lot for the reference to Birdsall's article. Let me, however, correct a minor typo: The publication is called "Philologia Sacra". Again= , thanks. Ulrich Schmid -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: DC PARKER An: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Datum: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 1998 13:54 Betreff: Re: tc-list Lk 22:62 in 0171 >There is ana rticle by J.N. Birdsall, 'A fresh examination of the >fragments of the gospel of St. Luke in ms. 0171 and an attempted >reconstruction with special reference to the recto', "Philologische >Sacra" (F/S H.J. Frede & W. Thiele), ed. R. Gryson, Freiburg 1993, >212-227. > >He presents the evidence which led me to be so definite in my >statement in "The Living Text of the Gospels". He also provides an >account of different views which explains the confusion to which our >attention has been drawn. > >David Parker > > >DR DC PARKER >READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY >DEPT OF THEOLOGY >UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM >TEL. 0121-414 3613 >FAX 0121-414 6866 >E-MAIL PARKERDC@M4-ARTS.BHAM.AC.UK > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 10 22:03:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA11406; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:03:53 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981210210714.00bfcdd0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:07:14 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Vendyl, ShemTob & Qumran Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2479 I have learned that Vendyl Jones has published some of his false claims about Shem Tob Matthew as recently as October of 1998: "Rabbi Shem Tov Ben Isaac Ben-Shaprut... wrote a polemic book against Christianity. Included in this book was a chapter titled Eben Bohan. This chapter is a copy of Matthew written in Hebrew. ... The Shem Tov text did not contain the first two chapters of Matthew. Even Professor Howard stated that he had filled in all the parts missing from the text he copied from the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. From where did the title "Even Bohan" come?... Even Bohan is due west from the north end of the Dead Sea.... All that area is now referred to as Qumran. (Vendyl Jones Research Institute RESEARCHER Oct. '98 p. 14-15) Vendyl also falsely claims that Codex Sinaticus lacks the first two chapters. He writes "That Codex Sinaticus Gospel of Matthew begins with Matthew 3:1." (Vendyl Jones Research Institute RESEARCHER Oct. '98 p. 14) The truth is: 1. Shem-Tob's entire book is titled "Even Bohan" not just the one chapter that has Matthew transcribed into it. 2. The book is called "Even Bohan" (the touchstone) while the location at Qumran is called "Even Bochan" (the stone thumb). They are not even the same Hebrew word (as James Taber has pointed out) 3. The Shem Tob version of Matthew DOES contain the first two chapters of Matthew. George Howard did NOT add them 4. The Greek Siniatic text of Matthew ALSO contains the first two chapters. In fact I have a facsimile of the first page of it. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA http://www.nazarene.net A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy, Sabbatarian & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Essene Forum: Essene website, listserver & links: http://www.nazarene.net/essene/essene_forum.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 11 09:52:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13874; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:52:18 -0500 From: "Mark Goodacre" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:55:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list Mt 6.28b (Sinaiticus)* // P. Oxy. 655.1 // Q 12.27 Priority: normal Message-ID: <1259A3D1C11@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1591 Have any of you seen the following? James M. Robinson & Christoph Heil, "Zeugnisse eines schriflichen, griechischen vorkanonischen Textes: Mt 6, 28b X [aleph]*, P. Oxy. 655 1, 1-17 (EvTh 36) und Q 12.27", _ZNW_ 89 (1998), pp. 30-44. Its thesis is that a scribal error by an editor of Q changed his source's OU XAINEI ("they do not card") to AUXANEI / AUXANOUSIN ("they grow"). Matthew and Luke were then dependent on a version of Q that featured the AUXANEI / AUXANOUSIN wording. The argument that OU XAINEI was found in an early Greek collection of Jesus' sayings is supposedly attested by (1) the occurrence of OU XAINOUSIN in the original reading of Codex Sinaiticus at Matt. 6.28 (revealed by Skeat in 1938) and (2) a possible reconstruction of the text of Thomas 36 in P. Oxy. 655. Does anyone who has read the article find its argument persuasive? I have several problems with it from a source-critical perspective, but I would be most grateful to hear any expert text-critical views on it. James Robinson gave a presentation of the basic thesis at the Q section of the SBL annual meeting a couple of weeks ago but I suspect that it will have been missed by any TC-Listers in Orlando because it was scheduled at the same time as the Text Criticism Section. Mark -------------------------------------- Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512 University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom Homepage: http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 11 11:47:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA14569; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:47:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:47:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199812111647.LAA14564@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:17:51 +0100 From: Christian Hoffmann To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Vendyl, ShemTob & Qumran Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1819 Some remark: I looked the two words up in my pocket Ben Yehuda-Weinstein English-Hebrew-English dictionary. There the two words are clearly: bohen (bet-he-nun): thumb bochen ( bet-chet-nun): touch-stone as even-bochan. Will this affect the ongoing dispute? Shalom --Christian At 21:07 10.12.98 -0600, you wrote: > >I have learned that Vendyl Jones has published some of his false claims >about Shem Tob Matthew as recently as October of 1998: > > "Rabbi Shem Tov Ben Isaac Ben-Shaprut... wrote a polemic book > against Christianity. Included in this book was a chapter titled > Eben Bohan. > [clip] >The truth is: > >1. Shem-Tob's entire book is titled "Even Bohan" >not just the one chapter that has Matthew transcribed into it. > >2. The book is called "Even Bohan" (the touchstone) while the location >at Qumran is called "Even Bochan" (the stone thumb). They are not even >the same Hebrew word (as James Taber has pointed out) > [clip] ********************************************************************** I M P O R T A N T : Due to a temporary server shutdown, I will receive all messages that arrive in the period Dec 16-Jan 4 only after Jan 4, 1999. In case of urgency, please use the fax or phone numbers given below, but only before Dec. 24. Happy Christmas/Hag Sameakh/A peaceful New Year ********************************************************************** Christian W. Hoffmann Swiss Federal Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research CH-8903 Birmensdorf, Switzerland phone: ++41-1-739 22 77 fax : ++41-1-739 22 15 e-mail: christian.hoffmann@wsl.ch www: http://www.wsl.ch/wsidb/leute/cho/choHPENG.html ftp: ftp.wsl.ch/pub/Hoffmann I prefer WWW pages which can be viewed best with *any* browser, contain *no* cookies, *no* Java, *no* frames, and *no* required images ! From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 11 11:56:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA14625; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:56:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981211105923.00c8f1b8@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:59:23 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: Re: tc-list Vendyl, ShemTob & Qumran In-Reply-To: <199812111647.LAA14564@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3656 Yes it does, as James Tabor said: I too was sorry to see this issue of VJ bulletin and how he was playing so fast and loose with the facts. I would add one IMPORTANT point...Even Bohan and Even BoCHan are NOT even the same words in Hebrew... One is a place name from Joshua 15:6, and is the Stone of BOCHAN (spelled with a Chet) the name of a person, son of Reuben, but also meaning THUMB...and that marker indeed looks like a thumb sticking up, just north of Qumran...Maybe the guy was tall and called "the thumb" as a knickname, and the rock got his name. The other word is Even Bohan (spelled with a Hey), the Smooth Stone or touchstone (used in Isa 28:16), an entirely different word. To confuse the two is like maintaining that the words "car"and "cat" are the same in English...after all, only one letter difference!! James Tabor At 11:47 AM 12/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >Some remark: > >I looked the two words up in my pocket Ben Yehuda-Weinstein English-Hebrew-English dictionary. > >There the two words are clearly: > >bohen (bet-he-nun): thumb >bochen ( bet-chet-nun): touch-stone as even-bochan. > >Will this affect the ongoing dispute? > >Shalom >--Christian > >At 21:07 10.12.98 -0600, you wrote: >> >>I have learned that Vendyl Jones has published some of his false claims >>about Shem Tob Matthew as recently as October of 1998: >> >> "Rabbi Shem Tov Ben Isaac Ben-Shaprut... wrote a polemic book >> against Christianity. Included in this book was a chapter titled >> Eben Bohan. >> > >[clip] > >>The truth is: >> >>1. Shem-Tob's entire book is titled "Even Bohan" >>not just the one chapter that has Matthew transcribed into it. >> >>2. The book is called "Even Bohan" (the touchstone) while the location >>at Qumran is called "Even Bochan" (the stone thumb). They are not even >>the same Hebrew word (as James Taber has pointed out) >> >[clip] > > >********************************************************************** >I M P O R T A N T : Due to a temporary server shutdown, I will receive all >messages that arrive in the period Dec 16-Jan 4 only after Jan 4, 1999. In >case of urgency, please use the fax or phone numbers given below, but only before >Dec. 24. Happy Christmas/Hag Sameakh/A peaceful New Year >********************************************************************** >Christian W. Hoffmann >Swiss Federal Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research >CH-8903 Birmensdorf, Switzerland >phone: ++41-1-739 22 77 fax : ++41-1-739 22 15 e-mail: christian.hoffmann@wsl.ch >www: http://www.wsl.ch/wsidb/leute/cho/choHPENG.html >ftp: ftp.wsl.ch/pub/Hoffmann >I prefer WWW pages which can be viewed best with *any* browser, contain >*no* cookies, *no* Java, *no* frames, and *no* required images ! > > James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA http://www.nazarene.net A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings ============================================== E-mail discusion groups: Nazarene Judaism; Messianic Judaism; Yahwism; Lost Tribes; Book of Enoch; Semitic Origin of the New Testament; Prophecy, Sabbatarian & b-Aramaic. Subscribe at: http://www.nazarene.net ============================================== Essene Forum: Essene website, listserver & links: http://www.nazarene.net/essene/essene_forum.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 15 19:10:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA17275; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:10:14 -0500 Message-ID: <3676FB77.3FF939F0@flash.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:14:47 -0600 From: Andrew Payne Organization: FamilyFirst Ministries X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list Subject: tc-list Facsimile Editions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 141 With the Leningrad Codex available for OT TC, it has caused me to wonder, are there any facsimiles available for NT students? Andrew Payne From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 15 21:20:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA17554; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:20:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:22:59 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce Morrill To: tc-list Subject: Re: tc-list Facsimile Editions In-Reply-To: <3676FB77.3FF939F0@flash.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 267 On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Andrew Payne wrote: > With the Leningrad Codex available for OT TC, it has caused me to > wonder, are there any facsimiles available for NT students? There are many. See JK Elliott's Bibliography of NT mss. Bruce Morrill bruce@math.ksu.edu From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 16 08:46:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA19786; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:46:17 -0500 From: dd-1@juno.com To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc: dd-1@juno.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:46:57 -0600 Subject: Re: tc-list Facsimile Editions Message-ID: <19981216.074658.-719455.0.dd-1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1106 Andrew, Denny Diehl here >> With the Leningrad Codex available for OT TC, it has caused me to >> wonder, are there any facsimiles available for NT students? I wondered the same thing. I just ordered (but it was back-ordered because they are out of stock) The Complete Text Of The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts edited by Philip Comfort & David Barrett from CBD Retail price $49.99 CBD price $24.95. Here is the blurb: "Compiled for the first time in one volume! Comfort and Barrett present a Greek transcription of 55 of the earliest New Testament Manuscripts. Two-thirds of the original New Testament is here, and many of its portions are dated nearly 200 years earlier than the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Background information (date, location of discovery) accompanies each transcription. 656 pages, hardcover. All the best. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 16 11:08:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA01387; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:08:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:10:41 -0500 From: "Harold P. Scanlin" Subject: Re: tc-list Facsimile Editions To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199812161111_MC2-63CF-B490@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1783 > >> With the Leningrad Codex available for OT TC, it has caused me to > >> wonder, are there any facsimiles available for NT students? Many of the important NT mss have appeared in facsimile editions, most ar= e quite expensive and also out of print. Anyone who has priced facsimile editions of other manuscripts knows that the Eerdmans facsimile is a real= bargain. Here are a few possibilities: The Olms reprint of Tischendorf's edition of Sinaiticus may still be in print. Pickwick Press, Pittsburgh, reprinted Scrivener's edition of Beza= e. In both cases, these are not strictly facsimile editions, but diplomatic= renderings of the mss in Uncial script. Bruce Metzger's _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ provides a nice collecti= on of representative samples, including Greek OT. Jack Finegan, _Encountering New Testament manuscripts_ (Eerdmans, 1974) i= s a richly illustrated "working introduction to textual criticism." It is out of print, but I heard rumors that someone was planning to reissue it.= J. K. Elliott, _A bibliography of Greek New Testament manuscripts_ (Cambridge U. Press, 1989) lists editions and available facsimiles and plates by manuscript number. A very useful resource. > I just ordered (but it was back-ordered > because they are out of stock) = > = > The Complete Text Of The Earliest New Testament > Manuscripts edited by Philip Comfort & David Barrett > = > from CBD Retail price $49.99 CBD price $24.95. I think out of stock really means not yet published, postponed from mid 1998 to ?. It should be a valuable resource, but my impression is that i= t will only include selected plates, not full facsimiles. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 16 12:24:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA01910; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:24:57 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Facsimile Editions Message-ID: <19981216.121355.5463.1.seventh.guardian@juno.com> References: <19981216.074658.-719455.0.dd-1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,14-23,27,31-32,35-36,45-46,51-52,59-60,64-70 From: seventh.guardian@juno.com (Maurice A. Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:25:17 EST Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3798 On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:46:57 -0600 dd-1@juno.com writes: >Andrew, Denny Diehl here >I wondered the same thing. I just ordered (but it was back-ordered >because they are out of stock) > > The Complete Text Of The Earliest New Testament > Manuscripts edited by Philip Comfort & David Barrett > >from CBD Retail price $49.99 CBD price $24.95. They are not out of stock -- the book has not yet been published by Baker, and has been delayed with new publication dates for the last year or so. Current publication date is now set for March 1999. > Here is the blurb: >"Compiled for the first time in one volume! Comfort and Barrett >present a Greek transcription of 55 of the earliest New Testament >Manuscripts. Two-thirds of the original New Testament is here, and >many of its portions are dated nearly 200 years earlier than the Codex >Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Background information (date, location of >discovery) accompanies each transcription. 656 pages, hardcover. Blurbs are always so wonderful and positive. I have a pre-publication xerox copy, and I would suggest that text-critics will have high levels of disappointment in the format and claims regarding the MSS as found in this volume when it comes out. One egregious example out of many: P39 is claimed to be totally identical with B, which could only work if the reconstructed portions in fact agree with B and offer *no* other possibilities (which they do, if one consults Grenfell and Hunt's original edition). Also, the format for presentation of the Greek text is extremely crowded, and one seriously could wish that a monospaced Greek font had been used instead of a proportional one. Add to that the fact that the layout and presentation of the reconstructed + extant portions of the papyri and uncial fragments antedating AD 400 (and that is all that there is in the volume, in accordance with Comfort's conclusion that the reading of 2 out of 3 of the earliest MSS is automatically "best") does *not* conform to the usual style or conventions for reconstruction as found in, e.g. the Oxyrhynchus volumes (e.g. supplied portions have only one bracket, before the extant text, and not [ ] enclosing the supplied words), and it is not surprising that this volume appears careless in overall production. Nevertheless, it still is a reasonably accurate presentation of the data of the pre-AD 400 papyri and uncial fragments, and can serve a useful purpose, even if it does not look as professional as it should and even if Comfort (as usual) claims far more than is warranted in regard to the MSS he presents. It also should be noted that Comfort's book will be out of date by the time it is published, since it will not include the new papyri and uncial fragments listed in the latest Muenster _Bericht_ volume (1998) which I just received (though p101, p102, p104 are included). The early papyri which remain unincluded will be p100, p103, p106, p107, p108, p109, p110, p111, p113, p114, and p115, and uncial fragment 0308. Of course Comfort readily found room for 7Q5, and basically proclaims its authenticity :-) Also, the MSS included are not facsimiles, but transcriptions and reconstructions in typeset format (using that poor-quality proportional font mentioned above). There apparently will be photographs of sample pages of some (but not all) of the MSS heading various sections. ============================================== Maurice A. Robinson Professor of NT and Greek Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary Wake Forest, North Carolina ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 16 17:33:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA03490; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:33:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3678DCD1.4D31C13D@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:28:33 -0500 From: John Albu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Facsimile Editions References: <199812160730.CAA18236@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 486 On December 15, 1998 Andrew Payne wrote: > With the Leningrad Codex available for OT TC, it has caused me to > wonder, are there any facsimiles available for NT students? A complete color facsimile edition of Vaticanus 1209 will be published by the Istituto Poligrafico dello Stato, Italy. John Albu ___________________________________________ Simplify your holiday shopping... Visit our partners for great holiday gifts. http://www.netzero.net/etoys http://www.netzero.net/amazon From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 17 14:11:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01851; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:11:22 -0500 Message-ID: <36798146.4B196718@ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:10:14 -0800 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-AIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu. Subject: tc-list text problems in Galatians Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 763 I am about to embark on writing a commentary on Galatians and need some help on text critical issues. Since part of my brief is to deal with how text critical matters have a bearing on exegesis, I am intent to become aware of all the text critical issues that the text history of Galatians exhibits. In the light of this, I wonder if list-members might be kind enough to send me text critical issues or notations of variants in the text tradition of the Epistle that you know are not discussed, or which you view as inadequately discussed, by Metzger in his textual commentary. Thanks in advance for any and all help in this matter. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 17 14:31:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA02000; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:31:47 -0500 Message-ID: <36795D0D.4504EA13@cam.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:35:41 +0000 From: Jonathan Ryder X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list text problems in Galatians References: <36798146.4B196718@ameritech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1161 "Jeffrey B. Gibson" wrote: > I am about to embark on writing a commentary on Galatians and need some > help on text critical issues. Since part of my brief is to deal with how > text critical matters have a bearing on exegesis, I am intent to become > aware of all the text critical issues that the text history of Galatians > exhibits. In the light of this, I wonder if list-members might be kind > enough to send me text critical issues or notations of variants in the > text tradition of the Epistle that you know are not discussed, or which > you view as inadequately discussed, by Metzger in his textual > commentary. > > Thanks in advance for any and all help in this matter. > > Yours, > > Jeffrey Gibson > -- > Jeffrey B. Gibson > 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A > Chicago, Illinois 60626 > e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net Is this library entry any use? Author: O'Neill, J. C. Title: The recovery of Paul's letter to the Galatians/ [by] J. C. O'Neill London: S.P.C.K, 1972 viii, 87p; 23cm Notes: Bibliography: p. 16-18 Subjects: Bible. N.T. Galatians--Criticism, Textual J.P.Ryder From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 17 19:56:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA03339; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:56:07 -0500 From: rlmullen@netpath.net Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981217200040.0079b200@netpath.net> X-Sender: rlmullen@netpath.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:00:40 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list text problems in Galatians In-Reply-To: <36795D0D.4504EA13@cam.ac.uk> References: <36798146.4B196718@ameritech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1326 Gordon Fee could probably give you some pointers for your project too. --Rod Mullen At 07:35 PM 12/17/98 +0000, you wrote: >"Jeffrey B. Gibson" wrote: > >> I am about to embark on writing a commentary on Galatians and need some >> help on text critical issues. Since part of my brief is to deal with how >> text critical matters have a bearing on exegesis, I am intent to become >> aware of all the text critical issues that the text history of Galatians >> exhibits. In the light of this, I wonder if list-members might be kind >> enough to send me text critical issues or notations of variants in the >> text tradition of the Epistle that you know are not discussed, or which >> you view as inadequately discussed, by Metzger in his textual >> commentary. >> >> Thanks in advance for any and all help in this matter. >> >> Yours, >> >> Jeffrey Gibson >> -- >> Jeffrey B. Gibson >> 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A >> Chicago, Illinois 60626 >> e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net > >Is this library entry any use? > >Author: O'Neill, J. C. >Title: The recovery of Paul's letter to the Galatians/ [by] J. C. >O'Neill > London: S.P.C.K, 1972 > viii, 87p; 23cm >Notes: Bibliography: p. 16-18 >Subjects: Bible. N.T. Galatians--Criticism, Textual > >J.P.Ryder > > > > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 18 06:20:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA05455; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 06:20:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be2a78$204e5840$aa15b080@49521890132.uni-muenster.de> From: "Ulrich Schmid" To: Subject: Re: tc-list text problems in Galatians Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:14:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail.uni-muenster.de id MAA73328 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2844 On Thu, 15 Dec 1998, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote: >I am about to embark on writing a commentary on Galatians and need some >help on text critical issues. Since part of my brief is to deal with how >text critical matters have a bearing on exegesis, I am intent to become >aware of all the text critical issues that the text history of Galatians >exhibits. In the light of this, I wonder if list-members might be kind >enough to send me text critical issues or notations of variants in the >text tradition of the Epistle that you know are not discussed, or which >you view as inadequately discussed, by Metzger in his textual >commentary. In order to get familiar with textual features displayed by the extant gr= eek textual transmission I suggest you consult the pertinent volume of Text und Textwert der griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments II: Die Paulinischen Briefe, vol. 3: Galaterbrief bis Philipperbrief, de Gruy= ter 1991 [vol. 18 of the series Arbeiten zur Neutestamentlichen Textforschung= , ed. K. Aland]. Herein you will find all the available greek manuscript evidence for 17 selected Teststellen. The syriac tradition is available in: Das Neue Testament in syrischer =DCberlieferung II: Die Paulinischen Brie= fe, Teil 2: Korintherbrief, Galaterbrief,..., de Gruyter 1995 (edd. B. Aland,= A. Juckel) [vol. 23 of the series Arbeiten zur neutestamentlichen Textforschung] Unfortunately, the pertinent Vetus Latina volume is not available. In order to get familiar with the highest standards obtainable in textual studies related to Galatians I strongly recommend two articles published = by Tjitze Baarda: Marcion's Text of Gal 1,1. Concerning the Reconstruction of the First Ver= se of the Marcionite Corpus Paulinum; Vigiliae Christianae 42, 1988, 236-256. Gal 5,1: hH ELEYTERIA... Over de 'Westerse Tekst' en de Tekst van Marcion= ; Christologische Perspectieven. Exegetische en hermeneutische studies (Festschrift H. Baarlink), Kampen 1992, 173-193. If you wish to get familiar with extended information related to the Marcionite version of Galatians, I may humbly recommend my own book: Marcion und sein Apostolos. Rekonstruktion und historische Einordnung der marcionitischen Paulusbriefausgabe, deGruyter 1995 (Arbeiten zur neutestamentlichen Textforschung 25) including discussion of earlier literature (Th. Zahn, A Harnack, J.J. Clabeaux) on the subject. On the broader issue of early collections of Paul's letters you may want = to consult: E.H. Lovering, jr., The Collection Redaction, and Early Circulation of th= e Corpus Paulinum, diss. Southern Methodist University 1988 David Trobisch, Die Entstehung der Paulusbriefsammlung. Studien zu den Anf=E4ngen christlicher Publizistik, 1989 (Novum testamentum et orbis ant= iquus 19), and my own comments in the above mentioned publication. Ulrich Schmid From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 22 07:39:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20469; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:39:11 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: tc-list NT Textual Criticism books Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:40:28 +0100 Message-Id: <000001be2da8$4185dc80$67566686@Atair.chemie.uni-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 637 Today I found these books on Amazon. Comments welcome: An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism Leon Vaganay, Christian Amphoux, Heimerdinger 1992 Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0521424933 Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism J. Harold Greenlee 1995 Hendrickson Publishers; ISBN: 1565630378 New Testament Textual Criticism : A Concise Guide David Alan Black 1994 Baker Bk. House; ISBN: 0801010748 Best wishes Wieland "Critically examine everything. Hold on to the good." (Paul, First Thessalonians 5.21) --------------- Wieland Willker willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 22 09:09:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20707; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:09:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001be2da8$4185dc80$67566686@Atair.chemie.uni-bremen.de> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:13:02 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list NT Textual Criticism books Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2079 On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Wieland Willker" wrote: >Today I found these books on Amazon. >Comments welcome: > >An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism >Leon Vaganay, Christian Amphoux, Heimerdinger >1992 >Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0521424933 This is not really a good introduction. It assumes you know too much. Also, the theories of the authors (especially about the "Western" text) are rather unorthodox. As a reference, however, it can be useful (it has a better bibliography of manuscripts than most, and is more concerned with the origins of manuscripts than both). Just be sure to read a more balanced manual first. >Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism >J. Harold Greenlee >1995 >Hendrickson Publishers; ISBN: 1565630378 This has a number of useful features, such as information on the terms used in textual criticism and information on how to read a collation. On the other hand, it is not very advanced, and the list of text-types to which manuscripts belong is terribly inaccurate. >New Testament Textual Criticism : A Concise Guide >David Alan Black >1994 >Baker Bk. House; ISBN: 0801010748 This book is extremely thin. It might be useful for someone who just wants to know what textual criticism is. It is not an adequate introduction to the discipline. And it won't tell you anything not found in Metzger, Aland, or even Greenlee. And the table of manuscripts is pretty much the same as Greenlee's -- i.e. pitiful. If you already know something about TC, you might find Vaganay useful. It would be my first choice of this list. Greenlee may not teach you much, but it is widely used; it would be my second choice. There is no point at all in buying Black if you have any other TC books. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 23 05:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA24935; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 05:14:08 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: tc-list The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage (TC-List) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:15:53 +0100 Message-Id: <000301be2e5d$3924c5a0$67566686@Atair.chemie.uni-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1530 For your holiday enjoyment: The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage http://purl.org/WILLKER/Egerton/Egerton_home.html This page shows you images of the fragments, the restored greek text (diplomatic line by line transcript + apparatus), translations, a bibliography and some publications. I am very interested in your comments! Till now you may know only the reconstructed text given in a lot of secondary books, but looking at the fragment itself will show you that there are a lot of open questions. Egerton has some interesting rare Nomina Sacra, which are presented. (This might be of special interest for Bob Waltz and his NS collection on his highly recommended TC site.) I would like to know your comments about the restoration given by Schmidt for Fragment 1 Recto (the healing of the leper) which removes the factual impossibility of traveling with lepers. I also need some help with the English translations. If someone has some spare time, please contact me. Personally I love to know what Jesus is saying in Fragment 2 Verso lines 67-70. So far no sufficient reconstruction has been found. Especially the first line of this fragment (line 67) is puzzling. Tell me what you make of it! Special TC-List question: What do you think about the dating? A comparison of Egerton with P66 and P75 might be interesting. Best wishes Wieland "Critically examine everything. Hold on to the good." (Paul, First Thessalonians 5.21) --------------- Wieland Willker willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Dec 23 20:14:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA26896; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:14:31 -0500 Message-ID: <36819542.40C@oneimage.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:13:38 -0700 From: "robert s. morse" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Georgian MSS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 232 Perhaps someone could tell me where to go to access Georgian Gospel MSS (beyond the usually discussed Adysh, Opiza and Tbeth MSS). My interest is in checking the presence of Mark 16:9-20. For whatever help: Thanks a lot! Bob Morse From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Dec 24 16:40:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA00347; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:40:40 -0500 Message-ID: <36827B99.2DAE963D@nyx.net> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:36:25 -0700 From: Dave Washburn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage (TC-List) References: <000301be2e5d$3924c5a0$67566686@Atair.chemie.uni-bremen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 650 Wieland Willker wrote: > For your holiday enjoyment: > > The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage > > http://purl.org/WILLKER/Egerton/Egerton_home.html This page is very well organized and the images are excellent as far as I can tell. I don't know that much about this topic so I can't comment too much on the content; however, one thing that strikes me about the page that shows typical letters is that there appear, to my untrained eye, to be at least two hands represented in the scripts. Has anyone else commented on this, or does anybody else here have any thoughts? -- Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur "Oh, the mind boggles!" -Wakko From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 25 10:36:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA02577; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:36:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199812251539.QAA21812@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: tc-list Mk 1.6 Tree blades and herbs Date: Ven, 25 Dc 98 16:41:28 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: "Liste TC-List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1603 Just discovered this variant in an Arabic ms of the XIth century, ms = Sinai Arabic 106.. According to the standard Greek text, John the = Baptist ate "locusts and wild honey". So is it also in most = manuscripts of this Arabic version on which I'm working, except this = one. Here it is written that John "ate tree blades and herbs" (wa-yaakul = atraaf ash-shajar wa-ahsheesh). Notably, from the copy of the ms in = my possession, it can be clearly seen that it is a correction: the = original text of the ms (probably the one we find in the other mss) = is erased and replaced by these words. To those interested, I can try = to send a scanning of that page. Is this reading diatessaronic? I hesitate. From a footnote in = Boismard's "Le Diatessaron de Tatien =E0 Justin" (p.75) I learn that = Syriac fathers quoting the Diatessaron read in it that John ate "milk = and honey". Nevertheless, the reading of my Arabic ms is strictly vegetarian. = Locusts are animals. Milk and honey are derived or produced by = animals. On the contrary, tree blades and herbs have no connection = whatsoever with animals. This sounds like a very strict encratism. Now the questions are: why would a corrector of the XIth century or = later, probably working in the scriptorium of the very orthodox Mount = Sinai monastery, bother to introduct such an idiosyncratic reading = (did forms of encratisme survive for such a long time in monastic = circles?), and where would he have taken it from? Any insights? Jean V. Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Dec 25 21:20:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA03214; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 21:20:14 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199812251539.QAA21812@carno.brus.online.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 20:36:16 +0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Carlton Winbery Subject: tc-list OURWN - 1 Sam. 25:34 LXX Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 758 While making a list of words that occur in the LXX but not in the GNT I discovered that OURWN in Accordance (at 1 Sam. 25:34) is parsed as Nom. fem. plur. gen of OURA. In the other occurances of this participle in the LXX Accordance parses it correctly. Here it should also be parsed as a pres. act. ptc. nom. masc. sg. as it is the subject of the passive verb. Due to this incorrect parsing, Accordance also leaves it out when you look for the occurrances of this word in the LXX. I have no idea what I will do with such a list except share it with Greek students who can't afford Liddell, Scot, Jones. Carlton L. Winbery Fogleman Professor of Religion Louisiana College Pineville, LA 71359 winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net winbery@andria.lacollege.edu From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Dec 26 11:26:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05110; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:26:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 10:23:18 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Prof. Ron Minton" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list OURWN - 1 Sam. 25:34 LXX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 933 On Fri, 25 Dec 1998, Carton Winbery wrote:... > discovered that OURWN in Accordance (at 1 Sam. 25:34) is parsed as Nom. > fem. plur. gen of OURA. In the other occurances of this participle in the > LXX Accordance parses it correctly. Here it should also be parsed as a > pres. act. ptc. nom. masc. sg. as it is the subject of the passive verb. > Due to this incorrect parsing, Accordance also leaves it out when you look > for the occurrances of this word in the LXX. > I have no idea what I will do with such a list except share it with Greek > students who can't afford Liddell, Scot, Jones. When I find this sort of thing, I try to send the info in to be corrected in the next edition. When Hans parsing guide came out, I found a number of errors just by checking a few books. I suggest you finish your project and share all corrections with Gramcord. Ron Minton 5379 North Farm Road 179 Springfield, MO 65803 (417)833-9581 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Dec 26 20:49:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA06049; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 20:49:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19981226204202.009efe00@mail.psu.edu> X-Sender: wlp1@mail.psu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 20:51:42 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "William L. Petersen" Subject: Re: tc-list Mk 1.6 Tree blades and herbs In-Reply-To: <199812251539.QAA21812@carno.brus.online.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2788 Re Jean Valentin's note: There is a well-known variant here in the Judaic-Christian gospels. Depending upon which edition you use, the fragment may be attributed to the GHebrews, GNazoraeans, or GEbionites. I don't recall the reading exactly (I'm on the road at the moment, and away from my sources), but it is usually attributed to GHebrews, as I recall, and has "oil-fried cakes" instead of "locusts"--and this has usually been taken to be an Encratite variant, and also evidence for a Greek origin of the GHebrews (the two words are very similar in Greek). Check out Klijn's *Jewish Christian Gospel Tradition* (SuppVigChr 17) or any NT Apocyrpha (Henneck-Schneemelcher, or Elliott). However: to the best of my knowledge, there is no obvious Diatessaronic reading here. Note that Boismard (cp. my comments on the work you cite in *Tatian's Diatessaron,* pp. 348-356) refers to Syriac Fathers (if your recitation of his evidence is correct), not the Diatessaron; check Plooij's edition of the Liege Harmony, which will give any significant variants. --Petersen, Penn State University. At , you wrote: >Just discovered this variant in an Arabic ms of the XIth century, ms Sinai= =20 >Arabic 106.. According to the standard Greek text, John the Baptist ate=20 >"locusts and wild honey". So is it also in most manuscripts of this Arabic= =20 >version on which I'm working, except this one.=20 > >Here it is written that John "ate tree blades and herbs" (wa-yaakul atraaf= =20 >ash-shajar wa-ahsheesh). Notably, from the copy of the ms in my possession,= =20 >it can be clearly seen that it is a correction: the original text of the ms= =20 >(probably the one we find in the other mss) is erased and replaced by these= =20 >words. To those interested, I can try to send a scanning of that page. > >Is this reading diatessaronic? I hesitate. From a footnote in Boismard's= "Le=20 >Diatessaron de Tatien =E0 Justin" (p.75) I learn that Syriac fathers= quoting=20 >the Diatessaron read in it that John ate "milk and honey". > >Nevertheless, the reading of my Arabic ms is strictly vegetarian. Locusts= =20 >are animals. Milk and honey are derived or produced by animals. On the=20 >contrary, tree blades and herbs have no connection whatsoever with animals.= =20 >This sounds like a very strict encratism. > >Now the questions are: why would a corrector of the XIth century or later,= =20 >probably working in the scriptorium of the very orthodox Mount Sinai=20 >monastery, bother to introduct such an idiosyncratic reading (did forms of= =20 >encratisme survive for such a long time in monastic circles?), and where=20 >would he have taken it from? > >Any insights? > >Jean V. > >Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique >e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 29 10:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA14299; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:22:01 -0500 From: jagehman@juno.com To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:14:16 -0500 Subject: tc-list Greek lexicons Message-ID: <19981229.101417.-136567.1.jagehman@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,10-11,16-23 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1390 Is Lampe's _A Patristic Greek Lexicon_ worth the $295 to buy? The context of this question is that I am a professor of theology in a Seminary in Caracas, Venezuela. The seminary does not have the library facilities that a normal seminary in the States would have. In my personal library, I have Bauer's Lexicon (2nd ed., not the new one soon to be released) and Liddell, Scott, Jones' Lexicon as well as various other theological dictionaries such as Kittel complete set and Colin Brown's set. Also, with the internet resources such as Thesaurus Gracae (sp?) available, would I be just as well off getting the newer version of Bauer, rather than Lampe's? I am finishing up my MA in Theological Studies while on furlough and will soon be finished. My next project will be to do an indepth study of Galatians from the Greek text. While I do not consider myself a professional textual critic, I am interested in being able to independently evaluate the textual variants. Sincerely, Rev. James A. Gehman Missionary in Residence, Brookside Community Church jagehman@juno.com Web site: http://www.familyshoebox.com/family/gehmangateway ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Dec 29 10:53:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA14371; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:53:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3688FC24.5E7C476D@chemie.uni-bremen.de> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:58:28 +0100 From: Wieland Willker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de-DE Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 987 > From: Dave Washburn > > The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage > > http://purl.org/WILLKER/Egerton/Egerton_home.html > > This page is very well organized and the images are excellent as > far as I can > tell. I don't know that much about this topic so I can't comment > too much on > the content; however, one thing that strikes me about the page that shows > typical letters is that there appear, to my untrained eye, to be > at least two > hands represented in the scripts. Has anyone else commented on > this, or does > anybody else here have any thoughts? No one else has ever mentioned this. Can you give specific examples? The letters which are bigger than the others are from the beginning of a line or from the beginning of a new sentence. When you look at the images of the complete fragments you will see a quite constant script. Best wishes Wieland ------------------------ Wieland Willker willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html