Subject: Re: tc-list Josephus Ant 18.3.3

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:17:25 -0600

Denny Diehl here

>Jim Oxford writes:

>>arguing that "this one was the Christ" was a Christian 
>>interpolation.

That makes sense, which was the reason for my original
question if there was an extant text which didn't include
the Testimonium.  That gives rise to another question:
Does anyone know who was more zealous in preserving
Josephus before Eusebius?  Was it the Jewish community
or the Christian community?

Maurice notes:

>In contrast, take a look at Jakob van Bruggen, _Christ on Earth_ 
>(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1998 [Dutch original _Christus op aarde_ 
>(Kampen: Kok, 1987)]), pp. 30-37, which, though allowing for some 
>degree of possible Christian interpolation, nevertheless concludes 
>"that Josephus's [sic] excursus about Jesus can be read as a 
>meaningful passage that is an integral part of the design of the 
>eighteenth book of his _Jewish Antiquities_ and as balanced 
>information from a Jewish perspective about the historical background 
>of the founder of the by then well-known group called Christians." 

I also have to wonder if Josephus was a bit ~unorthodox~ concerning
his view of a Jewish Messiah (which might have allowed for the
Testimonium Flavianum to be authentic)?  E.g., concerning
Vespasian he wrote:

	"But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this
	war was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their
	sacred writings, how, 'about that time, one from their 
	country should become governor of the habitable earth.'
	The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in
	particular; and many were thereby deceived in their deter-
	mination.  Now this oracle certainly denoted the government
	of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea."
	-Wars VI.v.4

Even Suetonius picked up on it:

	"A distinguished Jewish prisoner of Vespasian's, Josephus
	by name, insisted that he would soon be released by the
	very man who had put him in fetters, and who would then
	be Emperor."  -The Twelve Caesars, Vespasian 5

I certainly appreciate all the input.

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From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:12:33 -0600

>Testimonium Flavianum to be authentic)?  E.g., concerning

Don't make too much of the Vespasian bit. Remember, Josephus
got Vespasian's by a "prophecy," and proceeded to get ahead
due to the favour of the Flavian dynasty. Of *course*
Josephus would say anything he could think of that was favorable
to Vespasian. :-)

Also remember that Josephus, while definitely Jewish, didn't
win any awards for his conviction. Remember who was the
*only* survivor of the suicide pact at the citadel he
commanded.... :-)
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

                        Robert B. Waltz
                     [email-masked]

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