From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 1 02:34:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA07759; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:34:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:34:03 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list Howard's response to Petersen Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1609 A new article has appeared in TC, a sequel to an earlier offering: George Howard, "A Response to William L. Petersen's Review of _Hebrew Gospel of Matthew_" Abstract: William L. Petersen's review article in TC 3 (1998) offers a sharp critique of George Howard's Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Howard responds by reaffirming certain aspects of his argument and by pointing out numerous instances in which he believes Petersen has misunderstood or misrepresented his case. Readers of TC will want to read both the original review article and the response carefully (preferably with a copy of Howard's book close at hand) in order to evaluate the pros and cons of the two sides of the discussion. Comments on the subject are welcome on this list. I want to thank George Howard for writing his response for TC. I should note that his response was submitted several months ago, and the delay in its appearance is solely the responsibility of the editor (i.e., me). I had hoped to have his response ready in time to incorporate it into TC 3 (1998), but failing that, I have inserted a link between TC 3 and TC 4 to allow readers to access the two articles easily. A couple of new articles are being prepared and should appear in TC soon. Submissions for publication in TC are always welcome. *********************************************************** James R. Adair, Jr. Director, ATLA Center for Electronic Texts in Religion General Editor, TC: A Journal of Biblical Textual Criticism ------------------> http://purl.org/TC <------------------- *********************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 1 05:37:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA08965; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 05:37:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199903011042.KAA03104@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:40:44 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list J. Wever Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 314 With apologies for sending this private query to the list, but I wish to e-mail Prof. John Wever of Toronto and can't find the e-address. Larry Hurtado L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 1 10:49:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10688; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:49:17 -0500 Message-ID: <36DAB78C.9ADF6470@historian.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:51:40 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Howard's response to Petersen References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2860 "James R. Adair" wrote: > > A new article has appeared in TC, a sequel to an earlier offering: > > George Howard, "A Response to William L. Petersen's Review of _Hebrew > Gospel of Matthew_" > > Abstract: William L. Petersen's review article in TC 3 (1998) offers a > sharp critique of George Howard's Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Howard > responds by reaffirming certain aspects of his argument and by pointing > out numerous instances in which he believes Petersen has misunderstood or > misrepresented his case. I want to thank James for making Dr. Howard's response to Dr. Petersen's review available. I have but a few surface comments and first wish to clarify that I am a layman with some interest in the Shem Tov Matthew. An interested and informed lay audience is a considerable consumer base for these discussions and publications by scholars. As a layman with some competence in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, debate over a putative "Semitic original" of the Gospel of Matthew has always interested me, with some degree of perplexity. My view is that the Gospel of Matthew was autographed in Greek by a Greek-speaking scribe and, in fact, I am almost convinced that the Matthean scribe was not competent in either Hebrew OR Aramaic. Where certain sayings materials used by the scribe may have had oral or written Aramaic origins, the scribe's use of the idiom leads me to believe that even then he used Greek translations of that material. I must admit that I was under the impression that Dr. Howard's stance was that Shem Tov was a witness to this putative ancient "Hebrew Matthew" and I am pleased that this misunderstanding has been cleared up by Dr. Howard who confirms that his primary point was only that the Shem Tov text of Matthew predated Shem-Tov's Evan Bohan. Dr. Petersen treated Dr. Howard's claim of agreements between Shem-Tov and Old Latin and Old Syriac readings (against other Matthean witnesses) as singularly found (50%) in the Middle Dutch Liege Harmony. Dr. Howard's response is wondering if Dr. Petersen believes the MDLH is a "Matthew Witness" and goes on at length to attack that position. Perhaps I am confused because my impression was that Petersen was attempting to show that the textual tradition of the Western Medieval Harmonies was a "witness" to Shem Tov. I would ask some of the more learned scholars on the list to correct me if I am wrong but I perceive that the issue has converged between these two scholars that Shem-Tov Matthew is *not* a medieval witness to some putative ancient "original Semitic Matthew" and that debate now centers on its origins within the medieval Western tradition. Quite frankly, that's all I wanted to hear. Jack -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 2 07:31:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA19982; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:31:50 -0500 From: "DC PARKER" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:35:11 GMT Subject: Re: tc-list corrections in 010 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <2D2C5174B30@113hum4.humnet.ucla.edu> Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 457 These corrections are described (p. xxxiii),and listed and divided between: prima manu, secunda manu (the most active), and recenti manu (pp. 273-84) by Scrivener in_An ExactTranscript of the Codex Augiensis_ This is at least the place to start an examination of them. DR DC PARKER READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL D.C.PARKER@.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 2 07:37:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20043; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:37:40 -0500 From: "DC PARKER" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:41:03 GMT Subject: Re: tc-list In need of help Priority: normal References: <199902251417.JAA16584@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> In-reply-to: Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 398 There is Martini, 'La figura di Pietro secondo le varianti del codice D negli Atti degli Apostoli', in Settimana Biblica dei Professori di Sacra Scrittura in Italia, Vol. 19, ed. M. Laconi, Rome, 1966, 279-89. DR DC PARKER READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL D.C.PARKER@.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 2 09:59:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA21247; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:59:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:01:54 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Prof. Ron Minton" To: Bible Translation Mailing List cc: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Revised Literal&Gender In-Reply-To: <009f01be646a$1f0b5560$0efc08d0@Pwleman> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2091 We speak a lot of translation philosophy. This chart (REVISED March 2, 1999) attempts to arrange the translations below from the very literal to the full paraphrase. Suggestions are welcome. Also, I do not have a NEB with me and am estimating the date. Comments on the gender chart are also sought. LITERAL, FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT, AND PARAPHRASE LITERAL 1885 English Revised Version 1901 American Standard Version 1970 New American Standard Version 1982 New King James Version 1611 King James Version 1917 The Holy Scriptures (Jewish) LITERAL/DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT 1952 Revised Standard Version 1978 New International Version 1989 New Revised Standard Version 1970 New American Bible 1996 New International Version Inclusive DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT 1985 New Jerusalem Bible 1989 Revised English Bible 1996 New Living Translation 1995 Contemporary English Version 1985 Tanakh: A New Translation (Jewish) 1970 New English Bible DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT/PARAPHRASE 1976 Today's English Version 1995 God's Word 1996 New Century Version 1958 Phillips Version PARAPHRASE 1993 The Message 1971 Living Bible GENDER-INCLUSIVE TRANSLATIONS 1. ** An Inclusive Language Lectionary (N. Council of Chur, 1983) 2. New Jerusalem Bible (NJB - 1985) 3. New Century Version (NCV - 1986, 1987, 1988) 4. New American Bible (NAB - 1988 and 1990 revisions) 5. Revised English Bible (REB - 1989) 6. New Revised Standard Version (NRSV - 1989) 7. Good News Bible (GNB - 1992 revision) 8. The Message (1993) 9. The New International Reader's Version (1994, 1996, not 1998). 10. ** The Inclusive New Testament (Priests for Equality, 1994) 11. Contemporary English Version (CEV - 1995) 12. God's Word (GW - 1995) 13. New International Version Inclusive Language Edition (NIVI-1995) it was published only in Great Britain) 14. ** New Testament and Psalms, An Inclusive Version (Oxford University, 1995) 15. New Living Translation (NLT - 1996). ** = The more radical feminist translations. blessings, Ron Minton 5379 North Farm Road 179 Springfield, MO 65803 (417)833-9581 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 04:12:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA28363; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:12:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:16:10 -0500 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Request for assistance To: tc list Message-ID: <199903030416_MC2-6C85-851A@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 470 Hi, Is there anyone out there with a scanner and a copy of Tischendorf's 8th edition prepared to give me a hand? I need a scan the page(s) that contain the text and apparatus of Mark 3:16. This need on be in one colour (often called "Line-Art" by scanners) and to a resolution of 300dpi. It would probably best be sent as a GIF or a compressed TIF - But I can read most = formats Thanks for you consideration of this. Mike Bossingham MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 06:18:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA29376; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:18:10 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:20:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Late-Re: tc-list Thiede,Qumran, and Papyrology Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 598 Thanks, James, for pointing out the problems with my e-mail of Thiede, Qumran, and Papyrology, which decisively was too long. Sorry about that. If anybody is interested in what I wrote about that - I think now it is not recent anymore - please, contact me off-list and you=B4ll receive my complete message as an e-mail or an attachement. Once again, thanks to James R. Adair, and sorry to all tc-ers. Thomas Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 10:05:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00701; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:05:31 -0500 From: "DC PARKER" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:42:17 GMT Subject: tc-list Colloquium Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: Message-ID: <10B402A1862@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1096 A reminder to anybody who would like to attend the Second Birmingham Colloquium on the Textual Criticism of the NT, that it is still possible to register. All details, and a registration form, are available at the web-site http://web.bham.ac.uk/d.c.parker/2ndColloquium.html The them of the Colloquium is the International Greek New Testament Project and the Gospel of John. Speakers include Professor J.K. Elliott, Professor J.N. Birdsall, Professor B. Aland, Dr K. Wachtel, Professor C.D. Osburn, Dr P. Robinson, Prof. A. Alexeev, Dr G. Mink, Dr P. McReynolds, The Revd Dr W.J. Elliott, Dr J.L. North, Dr U. Schmid, Dr M. Bakker, Dr D.G.K. Taylor, The Revd M.E. Bossingham, Mr B. Morrill, and Dr D.C. Parker. The papers of the First Colloquium will be launched at the meeting, as the first volume in Texts and Studies, Third Series. For details, see http://web.bham.ac.uk/d.c.parker/TS.html DR DC PARKER READER IN NEW TESTAMENT TEXTUAL CRITICISM AND PALAEOGRAPHY DEPT OF THEOLOGY UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM TEL. 0121-414 3613 FAX 0121-414 6866 E-MAIL D.C.PARKER@.BHAM.AC.UK From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 12:28:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02518; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:28:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:32:11 -0500 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Cursive scripts in editions To: tc list Message-ID: <199903031232_MC2-6C91-F0F6@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 476 Hi, I have recently been making a study of the early critical editions. It struck me as quite remarkable that editions as late as Mill in 1707 still used a very cursive script and ligatures. These must have been very difficult to typeset and certainly much harder that using a regular font - which the Complutasian appears to have. Apart from conservatism, does any one know why they persisted in using this script? Regards Mike Bossingham MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 13:05:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA02794; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:05:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199903031232_MC2-6C91-F0F6@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:09:15 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Cursive scripts in editions Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1622 On 3/3/99, Mike Bossingham wrote: >Hi, > >I have recently been making a study of the >early critical editions. > >It struck me as quite remarkable that editions >as late as Mill in 1707 still used a very cursive >script and ligatures. > >These must have been very difficult to typeset >and certainly much harder that using a regular >font - which the Complutasian appears to have. > >Apart from conservatism, does any one know why >they persisted in using this script? Conservatism. You can still occasionally find German books printed in blackletter, too. In fact, I have a copy of Blass & Debrunner in blackletter. (Great gift that was: A grammar of a language I didn't know in another language I didn't know and an unreadable script. :-) The Complutensian used a style of Greek never used before or since. It *was* easier to set, and it's one of the reasons (I suspect) the Complutensian didn't have as many errors as Erasmus's first edition. But it was a dead end. It's said that the difficulties of typesetting Greek script is one of the reasons why it took so long to print a Greek NT. But the very difficulty might have something to do with why it took so long to evolve something easier: People weren't doing enough Greek printing to think up alternatives. (That's just a guess, be it noted.) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 13:40:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA03074; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:40:15 -0500 From: "Matthew Anstey" To: Subject: RE: tc-list-digest V4 #31 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:43:47 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be65a5$c5821b40$8f8257ce@concept> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199903030730.CAA28012@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3554 Gday Ron, You wrote, LITERAL, FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT, AND PARAPHRASE LITERAL ... 1611 King James Version 1917 The Holy Scriptures (Jewish) For what reason do you see KJV as literal? It must be assessed against its context not ours. The introductory essay in the first edition of the KJV (there were over 100 editions) promoted what many would see as a more functional approach to translation. Certainly they were very free in many of the translations. LITERAL/DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT 1952 Revised Standard Version 1978 New International Version 1989 New Revised Standard Version 1970 New American Bible 1996 New International Version Inclusive You are right in placing the NIV and NIVI in here, as they are a curious mixture of both formal and dynamic translations. This happens when large teams are involved, as seen in the LXX according to some. By they way, I'm glad you have included the "Stealth Bible," which is what some people have called the NIVI. DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT 1985 New Jerusalem Bible 1989 Revised English Bible 1996 New Living Translation 1995 Contemporary English Version 1985 Tanakh: A New Translation (Jewish) 1970 New English Bible Why is the NJB listed here? I would have thought it was in the previous list with NIV. DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT/PARAPHRASE 1976 Today's English Version 1995 God's Word 1996 New Century Version 1958 Phillips Version Again, why is the TEV in this list? It is miles apart from God's Word or New Century. Just because the readability level has been lowered does not mean it is a paraphrase. The CEV actually has an even lower readability level, and it is in the previous list. The TEV (as was the NJB) was translated straight from the original languages, and the idea that it is a paraphrase is misleading. PARAPHRASE 1993 The Message 1971 Living Bible GENDER-INCLUSIVE TRANSLATIONS 1. ** An Inclusive Language Lectionary (N. Council of Chur, 1983) 2. New Jerusalem Bible (NJB - 1985) 3. New Century Version (NCV - 1986, 1987, 1988) 4. New American Bible (NAB - 1988 and 1990 revisions) 5. Revised English Bible (REB - 1989) 6. New Revised Standard Version (NRSV - 1989) 7. Good News Bible (GNB - 1992 revision) Are you sure that earlier versions of TEV were not gender-inclusive? You are probably right. 8. The Message (1993) 9. The New International Reader's Version (1994, 1996, not 1998). 10. ** The Inclusive New Testament (Priests for Equality, 1994) 11. Contemporary English Version (CEV - 1995) 12. God's Word (GW - 1995) 13. New International Version Inclusive Language Edition (NIVI-1995) it was published only in Great Britain) What exactly do you mean? It is available for purchase in Australia and I've seen it in Canada, but it was only _published_ in GB. Are you referring to it not being published in USA? 14. ** New Testament and Psalms, An Inclusive Version (Oxford University, 1995) 15. New Living Translation (NLT - 1996). ** = The more radical feminist translations. I think you need to be very careful with this sort of characterisation. NIT (#14) is aiming for a lot more than gender-inclusive language, it is trying to eliminate all bias, so much so that they even remove references to God's "right-hand" so as to not offend left-handed people. I think that the scope of the inclusiveness is greater in these versions, including names for God of course. Just a thought. An excellent overview of gender-inclusive articles is by John Harris in The Bible Translator, Vol. 48 No. 2 (April, 1997): 207-217. With regards, Matthew Anstey From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 16:45:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA15094; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:45:52 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:49:57 -0800 (PST) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu In-reply-to: <991fb98d.36cb2eea@aol.com> (WFWarren@aol.com) Subject: Re: tc-list CPART GNT text Project From: Vincent Broman Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1308 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- WFWarren@aol.com asked: > I've received a bit of information from our library about a project being > organized by CPART on the GNT text.... > Does anyone know more about this project and its scope, participants, backing, > etc.? I wish I did, it sounds interesting. As far as I can gather, CPART was/is an interdisciplinary group at BYU and the ABMC that worked on radioisotope dating of DSS MSS and on a searchable CD edition of the DSS texts and fragments. Someone there was working on multispectral imaging of carbonized MSS from Petra to recover otherwise invisible text. I imagine that they are trying to expand and branch out with a new Greek project. Vincent Broman San Diego, California, USA Email: broman at sd.znet.com (home) or spawar.navy.mil or nosc.mil (work) Phone: +1 619 284 3775 Starship: 32d42m22s N 117d14m13s W === PGPv2 protected mail preferred. For public key finger me at np.nosc.mil === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNt2uRGCU4mTNq7IdAQEwaQP+LqJL/AY5EhsXks6M6+WLyT9P2p8t7D6d +qc6dOPmgjXuHdNJeC9nMLZylGLFFvJChNCEfQ2bvOPj1wEzs+afBVjRUnnpFyi0 /UV3cyHCjpR7oH++aP0bQMAWmfLay0YglS6ny4pOv/13emrpnXtKYANt5nUzPVEF gg9fZaPBXgs= =Xfdu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 16:58:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA15725; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:58:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:01:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Prof. Ron Minton" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Cursive scripts in editions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 449 On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Robert B. Waltz wrote:... > It's said that the difficulties of typesetting Greek > script is one of the reasons why it took so long to > print a Greek NT. But the very difficulty might > have something to do with why it took so long to > evolve something easier: People weren't doing enough > Greek printing to think up alternatives. It is interesting that the Hebrew Bible was printed a generation before the GNT. Ron Minton From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 17:41:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA16497; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:41:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:44:38 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Cursive scripts in editions Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1097 On 3/3/99, Prof. Ron Minton wrote: >It is interesting that the Hebrew Bible was printed a generation >before the GNT. I don't think it's surprising, really. Printing wasn't invented until after the fall of Byzantium (or, at least, so shortly before as makes no difference). So there was no particular reason for a Greek Bible to be printed; the Orthodox no longer had the Byzantine Empire, and the Catholics used the Latin Bible (which, of course, was the first book printed). Whereas the Jews, since they tried to get all their people to read the Hebrew scriptures, had an immediate use for a printed text. A Greek Bible was a luxury to Catholics (and an expensive one, given the problems of Greek printing :-), while a Hebrew printed text was very important to Jews anywhere. -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 3 17:49:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA16581; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:49:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:52:14 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Prof. Ron Minton" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: RE: tc-list-digest V4 #31 In-Reply-To: <000101be65a5$c5821b40$8f8257ce@concept> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4876 On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Matthew Anstey wrote: > Gday Ron, > You wrote, > > LITERAL, FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT, AND PARAPHRASE > > LITERAL > ... > 1611 King James Version > 1917 The Holy Scriptures (Jewish) > > For what reason do you see KJV as literal? It must be assessed against its > context not ours. The introductory essay in the first edition of the KJV > (there were over 100 editions) promoted what many would see as a more > functional approach to translation. Certainly they were very free in many of > the translations. Thanks for these notes. I too am surprised at the amount of functional E. in the KJV, but I have found it more literal than those below it in the list. Also, I put the KJV near the end of the literal section because it is less formal than those above it (Yet occasionally the NIV is more literal than the KJV). > LITERAL/DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT > 1952 Revised Standard Version > 1978 New International Version > 1989 New Revised Standard Version > 1970 New American Bible > 1996 New International Version Inclusive > > You are right in placing the NIV and NIVI in here, as they are a curious > mixture of both formal and dynamic translations. This happens when large > teams are involved, as seen in the LXX according to some. By they way, I'm > glad you have included the "Stealth Bible," which is what some people have > called the NIVI. > > DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT > 1985 New Jerusalem Bible > 1989 Revised English Bible > 1996 New Living Translation > 1995 Contemporary English Version > 1985 Tanakh: A New Translation (Jewish) > 1970 New English Bible > > Why is the NJB listed here? I would have thought it was in the previous list > with NIV. Good thought. D.A.Carson _The Inclusive Language Debate_, p. 69, agrees with you, but again note that I put NJB first in its category, making it almost the same as the NIVI just above it. I will try to re-examine these. > DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT/PARAPHRASE > 1976 Today's English Version > 1995 God's Word > 1996 New Century Version > 1958 Phillips Version > > Again, why is the TEV in this list? It is miles apart from God's Word or New > Century. Just because the readability level has been lowered does not mean > it is a paraphrase. The CEV actually has an even lower readability level, > and it is in the previous list. The TEV (as was the NJB) was translated > straight from the original languages, and the idea that it is a paraphrase > is misleading. Thanks for the note. I may need to raise the TEV one notch as well. > PARAPHRASE > 1993 The Message > 1971 Living Bible > > > GENDER-INCLUSIVE TRANSLATIONS > > 1. ** An Inclusive Language Lectionary (N. Council of Chur, 1983) > 2. New Jerusalem Bible (NJB - 1985) > 3. New Century Version (NCV - 1986, 1987, 1988) > 4. New American Bible (NAB - 1988 and 1990 revisions) > 5. Revised English Bible (REB - 1989) > 6. New Revised Standard Version (NRSV - 1989) > 7. Good News Bible (GNB - 1992 revision) > > Are you sure that earlier versions of TEV were not gender-inclusive? > You are probably right. NO, but could you check? I do not have a copy readily available at this location. > 8. The Message (1993) > 9. The New International Reader's Version (1994, 1996, not 1998). > 10. ** The Inclusive New Testament (Priests for Equality, 1994) > 11. Contemporary English Version (CEV - 1995) > 12. God's Word (GW - 1995) > 13. New International Version Inclusive Language Edition (NIVI-1995) > it was published only in Great Britain) > > What exactly do you mean? It is available for purchase in Australia and I've > seen it in Canada, but it was only _published_ in GB. Are you referring to > it not being published in USA? It was published by Hodder & Stoughton in England and cannot be sold in the USA. I do not know if Zondervan has bought the marketing rights yet or not, but they planned something like that to protect NIV sales :) > 14. ** New Testament and Psalms, An Inclusive Version (Oxford > University, 1995) > 15. New Living Translation (NLT - 1996). > > ** = The more radical feminist translations. > I think you need to be very careful with this sort of characterisation. NIT > (#14) is aiming for a lot more than gender-inclusive language, it is trying > to eliminate all bias, so much so that they even remove references to God's > "right-hand" so as to not offend left-handed people. I think that the scope > of the inclusiveness is greater in these versions, including names for God > of course. Just a thought. An excellent overview of gender-inclusive > articles is by John Harris in The Bible Translator, Vol. 48 No. 2 (April, > 1997): 207-217. Thanks, and also see Carson's 1998 book above. > With regards, > Matthew Anstey blessings (PS I noticed your greeting; do you know Crocodile Dundee?) Ron Minton 5379 North Farm Road 179 Springfield, MO 65803 (417)833-9581 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 06:19:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA19956; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:19:30 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:22:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 788 urgent! dear tc-ers, I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew 26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH with a stroke for IHSOUS). Please, help me as fast as possible!!! Thanks in advance, Thomas J. Kraus Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 07:34:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20141; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: granite.sover.net: nichael owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:38:59 -0500 (EST) From: Nichael Cramer To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de, nichael@sover.net Subject: Sale price on Swanson [was: tc-list urgent: help (swanson)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1104 Thomas J. Kraus wrote: > I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles > with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of > R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal > Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? Thomas, I can't help directly with your query (my copies of Swanson are in my "other office") but I ordered my copies directly from Bibal Press. Moreover, according to their web-site, they are having a sale on all four Gospel volumes for $49.95 (note: this compares with an individual list price of $119.95!) In addition they are offering the Acts volume at $14.95 (as opposed to $39.95). Their URL is: http://www.dfscott.com/bibal%20books/Greek%20Manuscripts.html (If you have trouble with the weird characters, just start at: http://www.dfscott.com/bibal/ ) (ObDisclaimer: I have no interest in interest, financial or otherwise, in Bibal, other than as a satisfied customer.) Hope this helps. Nichael -- Nichael Cramer work: ncramer@bbn.com home: nichael@sover.net http://www.sover.net/~nichael/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 07:39:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20174; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:39:03 -0500 Message-ID: <36DE3B05.DD7F56C@arches.uga.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:49:28 +0000 From: George Howard Organization: University of Georgia--Dept of Religion X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9A4A24CE1BB0E1EB801EDD02" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1637 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9A4A24CE1BB0E1EB801EDD02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas, I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. George Howard UGA Thomas J. Kraus wrote: > urgent! > > dear tc-ers, > I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles > with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of > R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal > Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? > In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson > print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew > 26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH > with a stroke for IHSOUS). > Please, help me as fast as possible!!! > Thanks in advance, > > Thomas J. Kraus > Universitaet Regensburg > Kath.-theol. Fakultaet > Universitaetsstr. 31 > D-93053 Regensburg > > Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 > Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 > thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de --------------9A4A24CE1BB0E1EB801EDD02 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for George Howard Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: George Howard n: Howard;George email;internet: howard@arches.uga.edu x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------9A4A24CE1BB0E1EB801EDD02-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 07:44:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20234; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:44:36 -0500 Message-ID: <36DE8250.58FA920F@cam.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:53:36 +0000 From: Jonathan Ryder X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: Sale price on Swanson [was: tc-list urgent: help (swanson)] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 268 Nichael Cramer wrote: > > Their URL is: > > http://www.dfscott.com/bibal%20books/Greek%20Manuscripts.html > > (If you have trouble with the weird characters, just start at: > > http://www.dfscott.com/bibal/ ) > Can't get to either of these? Jonathan Ryder From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 07:49:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20272; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:49:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: granite.sover.net: nichael owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:53:29 -0500 (EST) From: Nichael Cramer To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: Sale price on Swanson [was: tc-list urgent: help (swanson)] In-Reply-To: <36DE8250.58FA920F@cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 715 Jonathan Ryder wrote: > Nichael Cramer wrote: > > > > > Their URL is: > > > > http://www.dfscott.com/bibal%20books/Greek%20Manuscripts.html > > > > (If you have trouble with the weird characters, just start at: > > > > http://www.dfscott.com/bibal/ ) > > > > Can't get to either of these? > > Jonathan Ryder Sorry, I managed to mistype both of these: The corrected versions: http://www.dfscott.com/bibal%20books/Greek%20Manuscripts.htm and http://www.dfscott.com/bibal.htm (Note the final file-extensions) Nichael -- Nichael Cramer work: ncramer@bbn.com home: nichael@sover.net http://www.sover.net/~nichael/ (This'll teach me to type before I've had my Dr Pepper in the morning...) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 08:06:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA20388; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:06:41 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:09:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <36DE3B05.DD7F56C@arches.uga.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 342 > Thomas, > I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. > George Howard > UGA Dear George, thanks very much for your help. Thomas Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 10:05:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA21259; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:05:25 -0500 From: Fivefree@aol.com Message-ID: <17660787.36dea22b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:09:31 EST To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: tc-list CPART GNT text Project Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1516 In a message dated 3/3/99 2:51:13 PM Mountain Standard Time, broman@spawar.navy.mil writes: > I wish I did, it sounds interesting. > As far as I can gather, CPART was/is an interdisciplinary group > at BYU and the ABMC that worked on radioisotope dating of DSS MSS > and on a searchable CD edition of the DSS texts and fragments. > Someone there was working on multispectral imaging of carbonized MSS > from Petra to recover otherwise invisible text. I imagine > that they are trying to expand and branch out with a new Greek project. > Speaking of this, I was in Salt Lake City several weeks ago on business and heard a presentation on BYU public radio about this project. What little I heard had to do with DNA testing of the different animal skins which were (if memory serves me correctly) were primarily bovine. They were examined to see if the different skins were of the same animal or from the same herd (which would have a similar DNA sequence as they would be related). At least one hide was of an animal similar to the local species of antelope. A rather striking find was that the hides were contaminated with human DNA. The testing team thought they had contaminated the specimens. This was not the case. What they concluded was that the DNA of the author of the scrolls was present on them from having such intimate contact with them. I find it incredulous that the genetic character of the scribe who wrote this and that scroll is available to us in great detail. Regards, Jack Jackson From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 11:36:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA21874; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:36:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:41:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903041641.KAA10870@homer.bethel.edu> X-Sender: holmic@mailhost.bethel.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Michael Holmes Subject: Re: tc-list Cursive scripts in editions Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1176 Re the use of cursive scripts and ligatures in early printed editions of the NT: Metzger (Text of the NT, pp. 96) writes, "The attempt was made to reproduce in print the appearance of minuscule Greek handwriting, with its numerous alternative forms of the same letter, as well as its many combinations of two or more letters (ligatures). Instead, therefore, of producing type for merely the twenty-four letters of the Greek alphabet, printers prepared about 200 different characters. (Subsequently these variant forms of the same letters were abandoned, until today there remain only the two forms of the lower-case sigma" Mike Holmes At 12:32 PM 3/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have recently been making a study of the >early critical editions. > >It struck me as quite remarkable that editions >as late as Mill in 1707 still used a very cursive >script and ligatures. > >These must have been very difficult to typeset >and certainly much harder that using a regular >font - which the Complutasian appears to have. > >Apart from conservatism, does any one know why >they persisted in using this script? > >Regards > >Mike Bossingham >MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 11:43:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA21943; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:43:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:43:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199903041643.LAA21938@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:25:46 +0100 From: "Dr. Ulrich Schmid" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1078 George, you better checked the B-apparatus in Swanson! Thomas, of course Swanson gives nomina sacra. In Mat 26.1 Swanson gives IS (usual) and IHS (D = 05) and in 26.2 STRWQHNAI (family 13 inter alia). George Howard wrote: > Thomas, > I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. > George Howard > UGA > > Thomas J. Kraus wrote: > > > urgent! > > > > dear tc-ers, > > I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles > > with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of > > R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal > > Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? > > In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson > > print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew > > 26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH > > with a stroke for IHSOUS). > > Please, help me as fast as possible!!! > > Thanks in advance, ------------------------------------------ Dr. Ulrich Schmid U.B.Schmid@t-online.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 12:06:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA22270; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:06:39 -0500 From: rlmullen@netpath.net Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990304121709.0079a1e0@netpath.net> X-Sender: rlmullen@netpath.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:17:09 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 950 Checked my copy of Swanson. Sorry, he doesn't print nomina sacra in that volume. --ROd Mullen At 12:22 PM 3/4/99 +0200, you wrote: >urgent! > >dear tc-ers, >I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles >with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of >R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal >Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? >In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson >print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew >26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH >with a stroke for IHSOUS). >Please, help me as fast as possible!!! >Thanks in advance, > >Thomas J. Kraus >Universitaet Regensburg >Kath.-theol. Fakultaet >Universitaetsstr. 31 >D-93053 Regensburg > >Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 >Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 >thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 12:14:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA22362; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:14:11 -0500 Message-ID: <002801be6662$aa1b5a20$3323cac3@asterix.www.uni-muenster.de> From: "Boguslaw Blawat" To: Subject: tc-list Re: Greek/Russian interlinear Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:15:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by bbaer.muenster.de id SAA23407 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1397 Dear Prof. Ron Minton and readers: >From the Greek/Russian interlinear they are available: Evangelie ot Luki, ed. A. A. Alekseew, transl. V. W. Rebrik. Stockholm-St. Petersburg 1994. Evangelie ot Matfeja, ed. A. A. Alekseew, transl. V. W. Rebrik. Stockholm-St. Petersburg 1997. In print: Evangelie ot Marka, ed. A. A. Alekseew, transl. V. W. Rebrik. Evangelie ot Ioanna, ed. A. A. Alekseew, transl. D. F. Boumajnov. All editions should be to obtain at United Bible Societies or at Institut= e of Bible Translation Stockholm, which are participating on this project. = I am sorry I can't give the ISBN numbers. Dr. Rebrik, whom I met yesterday, hadn=92t any exemplar at hand. The Greek text follows GNT 4 with exceptions for some majority variants, which are traditionally important for Russian orthodoxy theology. By the way, there are also complete Greek/Polish interlinear with grammatical codes: Grecko-polski Nowy Testament, transl. R. Popowski, M. Wojciechowski. Warsaw 1994. ISBN 83-85435-18-2. > On 14 Feb 99 at 22:58, Prof. Ron Minton wrote: > > I just returned from teaching in Ukraine. I was asked whether there is > available a Greek/Russian interlinear. Does anyone know where one is > available? I hope this helps. Regards, Boguslaw Blawat Nuenningweg 131/10 D-48161 Muenster Germany T. ++251-8724183 blawat@uni-muenster.de (preferred) bblawat@muenster.de (alternative) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 13:18:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA22876; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:18:57 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:13:49 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu References: <3.0.5.32.19990304121709.0079a1e0@netpath.net> Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Sender: 320003854441-0001@t-online.de From: U.B.Schmid@t-online.de (Dr. Ulrich Schmid) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1502 My copy of Swanson was printed in 1995 (Sheffield Academic Press, William Carey Inernational University Press). It includes several apparatus, counted from A to D plus a lacunae-apparatus. Apparatus B gives the nomina sacra. Are there different copies of Swanson's New Testament Greek Manuscripts. Variant Readings arranged in horizontal lines against Codex Vaticanus around? rlmullen@netpath.net wrote: > Checked my copy of Swanson. Sorry, he doesn't print nomina sacra in that > volume. --ROd Mullen > > At 12:22 PM 3/4/99 +0200, you wrote: > >urgent! > > > >dear tc-ers, > >I knew that this would happen one day, but my booksellers have troubles > >with ordering books, as it seems. does anybody have his/her edition of > >R.J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Arranged in Horizontal > >Lines against Codex Vaticanus, 1995? > >In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson > >print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew > >26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH > >with a stroke for IHSOUS). > >Please, help me as fast as possible!!! > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Thomas J. Kraus > >Universitaet Regensburg > >Kath.-theol. Fakultaet > >Universitaetsstr. 31 > >D-93053 Regensburg > > > >Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 > >Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 > >thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de > > > > > ------------------------------------------ Dr. Ulrich Schmid U.B.Schmid@t-online.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 13:56:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA23160; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:56:34 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" , Subject: tc-list RE: help (swanson) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:00:39 +0100 Message-Id: <000001be6671$4b61f0c0$38066686@wieland> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 527 > In particular, I am needing of a minor piece of information: does Swanson > print nomina sacra in his editions? I am especially interested in Matthew > 26:2 (SRNAI with a stroke above the letters for STAURWQHNAI) and 26:1 (IH > with a stroke for IHSOUS). Swanson has the NS, but only in the footnotes (in the new book on Acts he has them in the text). So, the footnote for Mt 26:1 says: IS = B, Sin., A, Maj., K,L,M,S,U....f1,f13,.... IHS = D and Mt 26:2 STRWQHNAI = S, 118, f13, 69, 124, .... Best wishes Wieland From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 16:06:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24921; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:06:47 -0500 Message-ID: <19990304211059.2656.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [208.252.64.140] From: "Bruce Prior" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:10:59 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1224 Thomas and George -- Actually, NOMINA SACRA are in all of Swanson's volumes currently in print. In the Gospels volumes they are found in the notes section B on each page. In the Acts volume they are integrated with the main text. Specifically, Thomas, besides IS with a stroke for IHSOUS, which is very common among manuscripts in Matt 26:1, D and 2 have IHS with stroke above, according to Swanson. IH with a stroke is not found in Swanson's collection of manuscripts at Matt 26:1. In Matt 26:2, the only indicated NOMEN SACRUM for STAURWQHNAI is found in S and 118, where it is written STRWQHNAI with a stroke above the rho and omega, according to Swanson. I hope this is helpful. Bruce Prior Blaine, Washington n7rr@hotmail.com> >> Thomas, >> I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. >> George Howard >> UGA > >Dear George, >thanks very much for your help. > >Thomas >Universitaet Regensburg >Kath.-theol. Fakultaet >Universitaetsstr. 31 >D-93053 Regensburg > >Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 >Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 >thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 17:53:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA25783; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:53:11 -0500 From: "Errol Smith & Colleen Loo" To: Subject: tc-list Old Armenian Interlinear ? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:03:16 +1100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <22575359321061@domain4.bigpond.com> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 303 Dear TCers, I was wondering if anyone has seen or knows of anyone working on an interlinear English or Latin of the Old Armenian Version(s) of the Gospels. Even a very literal translation would help. This would greatly facilitate an neglected area of NT textual criticism. Yours sincerely, Errol Smith From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 18:43:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA26032; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:43:02 -0500 Message-ID: <19990304234718.26840.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [208.255.105.171] From: "Bruce Prior" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list urgent: help (swanson) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:47:17 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1499 Sorry, I misstated the reference. IHS is only in D. STRWQHNAI is in S 118 f13 69 124 157 579 788 1071 1346 Bruce Prior > >Thomas and George -- >Actually, NOMINA SACRA are in all of Swanson's volumes currently in >print. In the Gospels volumes they are found in the notes section B on >each page. In the Acts volume they are integrated with the main text. >Specifically, Thomas, besides IS with a stroke for IHSOUS, which is very >common among manuscripts in Matt 26:1, D and 2 have IHS with stroke >above, according to Swanson. IH with a stroke is not found in Swanson's >collection of manuscripts at Matt 26:1. In Matt 26:2, the only >indicated NOMEN SACRUM for STAURWQHNAI is found in S and 118, where it >is written STRWQHNAI with a stroke above the rho and omega, according to >Swanson. I hope this is helpful. >Bruce Prior Blaine, Washington n7rr@hotmail.com> >>> Thomas, >>> I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. >>> George Howard >>> UGA >> >>Dear George, >>thanks very much for your help. >> >>Thomas >>Universitaet Regensburg >>Kath.-theol. Fakultaet >>Universitaetsstr. 31 >>D-93053 Regensburg >> >>Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 >>Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 >>thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 4 19:41:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA26461; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:41:41 -0500 Message-ID: <19990305004553.18996.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [208.255.105.171] From: "Bruce Prior" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list tc: S.C.E. Legg Reprints Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:45:52 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 366 tc folks -- I understand that S.C.E. Legg's 1935 and 1940 Nouum Testamentum graece volumes for Mark and Matthew have been reprinted. Does anybody know how I can get ahold of them? Thanks. Bruce Prior Blaine, WA (360) 332-6046 n7rr@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 04:31:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA27982; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 04:31:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 04:34:58 -0500 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Re Leggs Editions To: tc list Message-ID: <199903050435_MC2-6CD8-62FD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 313 Hi, I don't know about the reprints, but I did manage very easily and cheaply to obtain 2nd hand copies of the originals. I haven't had anyone get back to me about a scan of Tischendorf's 8th edition. It is only one page and it is quite important for me. Regards Mike Bossingham MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 09:00:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00749; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:00:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:05:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903051405.IAA04894@homer.bethel.edu> X-Sender: holmic@mailhost.bethel.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Michael Holmes Subject: Re: tc-list Re Leggs Editions Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 538 Mike, I'll take my copy of Tischendorf down to the computer lab and see if they can scan in a usable image of the page in question. Will keep you posted. Mike Holmes At 04:34 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >I don't know about the reprints, but I did manage >very easily and cheaply to obtain 2nd hand copies >of the originals. > >I haven't had anyone get back to me about a scan >of Tischendorf's 8th edition. It is only one page and >it is quite important for me. > >Regards > >Mike Bossingham >MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 09:25:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00855; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:25:15 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990305063234.007a94d0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: yale@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 06:32:34 -0800 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: The Yales Subject: Re: tc-list Re Leggs Editions In-Reply-To: <199903050435_MC2-6CD8-62FD@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 568 At 04:34 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >I don't know about the reprints, but I did manage >very easily and cheaply to obtain 2nd hand copies >of the originals. > >I haven't had anyone get back to me about a scan >of Tischendorf's 8th edition. It is only one page and >it is quite important for me. > >Regards > >Mike Bossingham >MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com > >Hi, What page number do you need from Tischendorf? There is no OCR software that I have found that will scan Tischendorf. Let me know and I will see what I can do with it. Clint Yale yale@serv.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 09:43:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA01110; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:43:50 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990305144754.008d96a0@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:47:54 +0000 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: Re: tc-list Re Leggs Editions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990305063234.007a94d0@mx.serv.net> References: <199903050435_MC2-6CD8-62FD@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 999 At 06:32 05/03/99 -0800, you wrote: >At 04:34 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi, >> >>I don't know about the reprints, but I did manage >>very easily and cheaply to obtain 2nd hand copies >>of the originals. >> >>I haven't had anyone get back to me about a scan >>of Tischendorf's 8th edition. It is only one page and >>it is quite important for me. >> >>Regards >> >>Mike Bossingham >>MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com >> >>Hi, > >What page number do you need from Tischendorf? There is no OCR software >that I have found that will scan Tischendorf. Let me know and I will see >what I can do with it. > >Clint Yale >yale@serv.net > > Clint: You are confusing scanning with OCR [ optical character recognition ] Any scanner will scan and produce a graphic image. Converting this to alphabetical/numerical characters is what you are taling about. Regards, Maurice Maurice A. O'Sullivan [Bray, Ireland] mauros@iol.ie " With computers we can now mistinterpret Scripture at speeds never before possible" From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 10:08:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01310; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:08:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:11:59 -0500 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: Re: tc-list Re Leggs Editions To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199903051012_MC2-6CE2-1247@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 268 Hi I need the page(s) that have Mark 3:16. I do not need OCR's just images in monochrome (often called Lineart) on scanners and probably best as a GIF or a compressed GIF. I just need it as an illustration in my thesis. Thanks for you help on this. Regards Mike From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 5 20:45:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA04730; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:45:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199903060149.CAA07922@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: Re: tc-list Old Armenian Interlinear ? Date: Sam, 6 Mar 99 02:50:10 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 777 Why not simply learn Armenian? It might take less time than waiting = for such a book... >Dear TCers, I was wondering if anyone has seen or knows of anyone working >on an interlinear English or Latin of the Old >Armenian Version(s) of the Gospels. Even a very literal translation would >help. This would greatly facilitate an neglected >area of NT textual criticism. >Yours sincerely, Errol Smith > _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 02:28:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA05374; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:28:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: hyle@mail.gte.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:32:06 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Will Wagers Subject: tc-list Definitions? Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 189 If it's not too basic, could someone offer definitions of: LITERAL, FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENT, PARAPHRASE DYNAMIC EQUIVALENT Thanks, Will Wagers hyle@gte.net "Reality is the best metaphor." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 04:29:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA05778; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 04:29:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 04:33:12 -0500 From: Mike Bossingham Subject: tc-list Tischendorf To: tc list Message-ID: <199903060433_MC2-6CF9-5097@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 78 Hi, Thanks to Mike Holmes for sending me the scan. Regards Mike Bossingham From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 09:50:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07139; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:50:17 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990306065737.007ca910@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: yale@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 06:57:37 -0800 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: The Yales Subject: Re: tc-list Re Leggs Editions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990305144754.008d96a0@gpo.iol.ie> References: <3.0.1.32.19990305063234.007a94d0@mx.serv.net> <199903050435_MC2-6CD8-62FD@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1410 At 02:47 PM 3/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >At 06:32 05/03/99 -0800, you wrote: >>At 04:34 AM 3/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>I don't know about the reprints, but I did manage >>>very easily and cheaply to obtain 2nd hand copies >>>of the originals. >>> >>>I haven't had anyone get back to me about a scan >>>of Tischendorf's 8th edition. It is only one page and >>>it is quite important for me. >>> >>>Regards >>> >>>Mike Bossingham >>>MikeBossingham@Compuserve.com >>> >>>Hi, >> >>What page number do you need from Tischendorf? There is no OCR software >>that I have found that will scan Tischendorf. Let me know and I will see >>what I can do with it. >> >>Clint Yale >>yale@serv.net >> >> >Clint: >You are confusing scanning with OCR [ optical character recognition ] > >Any scanner will scan and produce a graphic image. >Converting this to alphabetical/numerical characters is what you are taling >about. >I stand corrected about the OCR as far as a graphical image is concerned. As far as recognition of the alphabetical/numerical characters is concerned Omnipage and Textbridge will not do the job adequately. Keying in is the only way to go because of the small print and poor quality of the printed text. Clint Yale yale@serv.net >Regards, >Maurice >Maurice A. O'Sullivan >[Bray, Ireland] >mauros@iol.ie > >" With computers we can now mistinterpret Scripture at speeds never before >possible" > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 12:20:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA07631; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:20:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:20:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199903061720.MAA07626@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:26:24 -0500 From: "Dr. P Goble" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Re: Jerome's introduction to his Latin translation of the Gospel's Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1718 I need to know where on the web I can download Jerome's introduction to his Latin translation of the Gospels. Thank you Bruce Prior wrote: > Sorry, I misstated the reference. IHS is only in D. STRWQHNAI is in S > 118 f13 69 124 157 579 788 1071 1346 > Bruce Prior > > > > >Thomas and George -- > >Actually, NOMINA SACRA are in all of Swanson's volumes currently in > >print. In the Gospels volumes they are found in the notes section B on > >each page. In the Acts volume they are integrated with the main text. > >Specifically, Thomas, besides IS with a stroke for IHSOUS, which is > very > >common among manuscripts in Matt 26:1, D and 2 have IHS with stroke > >above, according to Swanson. IH with a stroke is not found in > Swanson's > >collection of manuscripts at Matt 26:1. In Matt 26:2, the only > >indicated NOMEN SACRUM for STAURWQHNAI is found in S and 118, where it > >is written STRWQHNAI with a stroke above the rho and omega, according > to > >Swanson. I hope this is helpful. > >Bruce Prior Blaine, Washington n7rr@hotmail.com> > >>> Thomas, > >>> I see no nomina sacra in Swanson. Certainly not in Matt 26:1,2. > >>> George Howard > >>> UGA > >> > >>Dear George, > >>thanks very much for your help. > >> > >>Thomas > >>Universitaet Regensburg > >>Kath.-theol. Fakultaet > >>Universitaetsstr. 31 > >>D-93053 Regensburg > >> > >>Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 > >>Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 > >>thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de > >> > > > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 12:33:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA07692; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:33:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 12:37:39 +0000 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list Re: Jerome's introduction to his Latin translation of the Gospel's X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990306123739.0066940c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 402 At 12:20 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >I need to know where on the web I can download Jerome's introduction to his >Latin translation of the Gospels. >Thank you If you dont find it I would be happy to scan it and send it to ya in jpg format. Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net Biblical Studies Resources at: http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 6 20:11:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA09136; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:11:11 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:13:58 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Prof. Ron Minton" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Request: Worms German Bible (fwd) Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rminton@orions0.orion.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1811 A friend is looking for information on a 1529 Bible. If you have information, please post to him at: Rick1560@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hello, I am looking for more information concerning the 1529 German Bible. If you know of any other sources of information concerning this German Bible, I would appreciate it if you would email the name of the sources and where they can be found. Thank you for your assistance. Rick Norris In his 1914 book THE WORLD'S DEBT TO THE BAPTISTS, John William Porter wrote: "The first translation of the complete Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek was given to the Germans by the Anabaptists." This Bible was published at Worms in 1529 and is hence known as the Worms Bible. Porter cited a source that stated that the Worms Bible "had its origin from the Baptists." The two main translators are thought to have been Anabaptists--Ludwig Hetzer and Hans Denck. Hetzer and Denck first made and published a translation of the Prophets of the Old Testament in 1527. (p. 139a) Porter noted that "Hetzer was arrested, condemned as a heretic, and beheaded at Constance." Porter wrote that Denck "suffering with tuberculosis" and "under a decree of banishment and outlawry, died in hiding, in Basel, in 1529" (p. 139c). Porter pointed out that every possible effort was made to suppress this "heretic bible" with all copies being found destroyed. Porter noted that only three copies are now known to be in existence--"one in the library in the University of Bonn, one in a library in Stuttgart, and one in the New York Public Library" (p. 139d). Porter claimed that Martin Luther made use of the Worms Bible especially in the Old Testament (pp. 139b-139c). Rick Norris If you have information, please post to him at: Rick1560@aol.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 7 13:23:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA11681; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:23:15 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990307181949.009a5040@utc.campuscw.net> X-Sender: cierpke.utc@utc.campuscw.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:19:49 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list Request: Worms German Bible (fwd) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2354 I've already posted info to him Kevin At 07:13 PM 3/6/99 -0600, you wrote: >A friend is looking for information on a 1529 Bible. >If you have information, please post to him at: Rick1560@aol.com > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Hello, >I am looking for more information concerning the 1529 German Bible. >If you know of any other sources of information concerning this German >Bible, I would appreciate it if you would email the name of the sources >and where they can be found. Thank you for your assistance. >Rick Norris > >In his 1914 book THE WORLD'S DEBT TO THE BAPTISTS, John William Porter >wrote: "The first translation of the complete Bible from the original Hebrew >and Greek was given to the Germans by the Anabaptists." > This Bible was published at Worms in 1529 and is hence known as the Worms >Bible. Porter cited a source that stated that the Worms Bible "had its origin >from the Baptists." The two main translators are thought to have been >Anabaptists--Ludwig Hetzer and Hans Denck. Hetzer and Denck first made and >published a translation of the Prophets of the Old Testament in 1527. (p. >139a) Porter noted that "Hetzer was arrested, condemned as a heretic, and >beheaded at Constance." Porter wrote that Denck "suffering with tuberculosis" >and "under a decree of banishment and outlawry, died in hiding, in Basel, in >1529" (p. 139c). > Porter pointed out that every possible effort was made to suppress this >"heretic bible" with all copies being found destroyed. Porter noted that only three >copies are now known to be in existence--"one in the library in the University >of Bonn, one in a library in Stuttgart, and one in the New York Public >Library" (p. 139d). Porter claimed that Martin Luther made use of the Worms >Bible especially in the Old Testament (pp. 139b-139c). >Rick Norris > > >If you have information, please post to him at: Rick1560@aol.com > > > > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Professor of New Testament Greek Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campuscw.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 8 02:17:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA13492; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 02:17:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990308012043.00cfa0c8@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 01:20:43 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list DuTillet Hebrew Matthew Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3815 All, I am pleased to announce that the new (2nd) edition of my translation of the DuTillet Hebrew manuscript of Matthew is about to be available. The DuTillet version of Matthew is taken from a Hebrew manuscript of Matthew which was confiscated from Jews in Rome in 1553. On August 12th, 1553, at the petition of Pietro, Cardinal Caraffa, the Inquisitor General , Pope Julius III signed a decree banning the Talmud in Rome. The decree was executed on September 9th (Rosh HaShanna) and anything that looked like the Talmud, that is, anything written in Hebrew charaters was confiscated as the Jewish homes and synagogues were ravished. Jean DuTillet, Bishop of Brieu, France was visiting Rome at the time. DuTillet was astounded to take notice of a Hebrew manuscript of Mattew among the other Hebrew manuscripts. DuTillet aquired the manuscript and returned to France, depositing it in the Biblioteque Nationale, Paris. It remains there to this day as Hebrew ms. No. 132. While most scholars have ignored the DuTillet Hebrew version of Matthew, two scholars, Hugh Schonfield and George Howard, have stated their opinion that this Hebrew text underlies our current Greek text. Schonfield writes: ...certain linguistic proofs... seem to show that the Hebrew text [DuTillet] underlies the Greek, and that certain renderings in the Greek may be due to a misread Hebrew original. (An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, Hugh Schonfield; 1927; p. 3-4) Howard concluded that DuTillet is a "revision of an earlier Hebrew Matthew" related to the Shem Tob version (JBL 105/1 (1986) p. 63 n. 34). Howard elsewhere states his belief that the Shem Tob text is a decendant of a Hebrew text which served as a model for our present Greek text. In my book THE SEMITIC ORIGIN OF THE NEW TESTAMENT I give a great deal of evidence that the Hebrew text of the DuTillet descends from a Hebrew Matthew which was Hebrew text behind our Greek Matthew. The new edition will have: * A greatly revised and expanded introduction. * The typeset Hebrew text on parallel pages. * Revised translation (I have learned more in the nine years since the first edition was published. * Typos have been corrected from the first edition. * The new title for the book will be DUTILLET HEBREW MATTHEW WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION (The old title was B'SOROT MATTI; THE GOODNEWS ACCORDING TO MATTHEW FROM AN OLD HEBREW MANUSCRIPT). * The sacred name translated as YHWH in the english text. * Quotations from the TANAK are boldfaced and footnoted. We are now taking prepublication orders for this important book. To reserve your copy just send check or money order for $35.00 ($30.00 plus $5.00 Postage and handling) made out to THE SOCIETY FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF NAZARENE JUDAISM and mail to: SANJ Po Box 471 Hurst, TX 76053 USA Please write "DUTILLET" in the memo of the check. James Trimm ============================================== He who seeks will not cease until he finds, and having found he will be amazed, and having been amazed he will reign, and having reigned he will rest. - The Goodnews according to the Hebrews ============================================== The Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism: PO Box 471; Hurst, TX 76053; USA http://www.nazarene.net A nonprofit organization supported by freewill offerings Check out our e-mail discusion groups. ============================================== The International Nazarene Beit Din http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin ============================================== International Nazarene Congregation Directory http://www.nazarene.net/directory.htm? ============================================== Beit Netzarim Congregation in Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas http://www.nazarene.net/beitnetzarim From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 8 12:15:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA16649; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:15:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199903081719.MAA123400@f04n07.cac.psu.edu> X-Sender: wlp1@mail.psu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:11:20 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "William L. Petersen" Subject: Re: tc-list tc: S.C.E. Legg Reprints In-Reply-To: <19990305004553.18996.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1316 Re Bruce Prior's request: At 04:45 PM 3/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >tc folks -- > I understand that S.C.E. Legg's 1935 and 1940 Nouum Testamentum >graece volumes for Mark and Matthew have been reprinted. Does anybody >know how I can get ahold of them? Thanks. >Bruce Prior Blaine, WA (360) 332-6046 n7rr@hotmail.com > Mr. Curt Daniel (as I remember his name), who does business as "Good Books" (2456 Devonshire Road, Springfield, IL 62703; no phone, no fax, no e-mail supplied in his catalogues), provides a number of rare, out-of-print, out of copyright books via excellent photocopies (8.5" X 11", regular Xerox reproduction). These are then bound hard-back. He *used* to list Legg's volumes (Matt., Mark) in his catalogue, if I remember correctly. He also has other hard-to-get textual criticism stuff (editions, etc.), along with all sorts of other theology. He has now expanded to used books (not Xeroxes) as well. His prices are reasonable, the service is prompt, and the quality of the reproductions of the Xeroxed stuff is top-notch. Write for a catalogue, and ask about the Xeroxed books--specifically, Legg. (The last catalogue I have from him didn't include the Xeroxes, so he may now have a separate catalogue for such, or only send it out occasionally.) --Petersen, Penn State Univ. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 8 19:47:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA19597; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:47:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 19:51:24 -0500 From: Jim West Subject: tc-list real time discussion X-Sender: jwest@highland.net (Unverified) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990309005124.00667fd8@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1016 Colleagues, I dont want to be taken amiss, but I have added a message board and chat room to my web site- and I am more than willing to make the chat room available for any of you who wish to discuss matters in real time. That is, if you and some of your colleagues wish to discuss an issue- simply agree on a time and go to the chat room. Chat rooms are generally scorned by some- but they can be an excellent way to hash out ideas without the delay encountered in mail. If you wish to visit the web page and check out the chat facilities (or should we call it the "faculty lounge")- then just go to the web site listed in my sig. Again, I am not advertising for anyone or making anything myself from this (I wish!!!!)- but I simply wanted to offer the real time chat service to any interested lister. And I apologize for any cross postings. Best, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Quartz Hill School of Theology jwest@highland.net Biblical Studies Resources at: http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 9 06:27:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA22323; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 06:27:44 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:31:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: tc-list re: thanks for help Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1612 Thanks to everybody providing help in my search of nomina sacra (in Swanson=B4s editions). One point which caught my eye and may be of any interest to anybody: Bruce= Prior found in Swanson=B4s Matthew the following nomina sacra printed in t= he apparatus: Matthew 26:1 IS with a stroke in many manuscripts Matthew 26:2 STAURWQHNAI with a stroke above the rho and the omega The leaf of the Chester Beatty Codex of the Gospels and Acts (P45) kept in= the Vienna collection, P.Vindob.G 31974, reads on the recto for Matthew 26:1 I[H with a stroke above it (the utmost form for IHSOUS) Matthew 26:2 SRNA[I with a stroke above all the letters Quite amazing that Swanson did not include these unusual forms. Especially, IH (common in P45) is very rare in texts on papyrus or vellum (above all in biblical texts; cf. P64), and can be found mainly in inscriptions. Couldn=B4t we get some further pieces of information if such= forms (IH is more an abbreviation than a contraction, the latter the regular way of forming nomina sacra) were included in the appropriate editions? Of course, textual criticism might not profit from these to a major degree, but intermanuscriptal or -scribal studies and issues these might be of interest, not to speak of the scribes=B4 way of thinking and their attitude towards the text they had to copy. Once more: thanks to you all for providing help. best wishes Thomas J. Kraus Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 9 07:05:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA22391; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 07:05:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199903091209.MAA14603@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:07:33 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list re: thanks for help Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 477 Thomas Kraus mentions interest in the varying forms of Jesus' name in nomina sacra, so I take the immodest step of pointing to my recent JBL article ("The Origin of the Nomina Sacra: A Proposal," JBL 117/4[1998], 655-73), in which I offer a suggestion that takes up this variation as significant. Larry Hurtado L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 12 18:23:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA17636; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:23:42 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990312171630.0071cf34@pop.flash.net> X-Sender: logsdon@pop.flash.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:16:30 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Mike Logsdon Subject: tc-list question concerning John 15:8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1254 List Members, Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was glorified that you might bear much fruit and you might become my disciples OR two separate realities that build upon each other in the hina clause (2) that you might bear much fruit and [thus, then??] will become my disciples? I have done some preliminary work on this variant and it seems that the hardest reading is the future indicative which might also explain the origin of the other. On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause. Most translations favor reading two but the UBS has moved in favor of the first from the 3d edition to the 4th edition. What I would like to hear from someone who can do a search in the Greek text of the hina clauses is the number of cases where John's hina clauses differ when there are more than one verb tense associated after a hina. OR is it common for the two verbs to differ and therefore have the second verb introduce another thought building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated as well. Thanks Mike Logsdon Southwestern Theological Seminary From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 14 11:13:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA24078; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:13:06 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990312171630.0071cf34@pop.flash.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:19:41 +0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Carlton Winbery Subject: Re: tc-list question concerning John 15:8 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3084 Mike Logsdon wrote; >List Members, >Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is >the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was glorified >that you might bear much fruit and you might become my disciples OR two >separate realities that build upon each other in the hina clause (2) that >you might bear much fruit and [thus, then??] will become my disciples? I >have done some preliminary work on this variant and it seems that the >hardest reading is the future indicative which might also explain the >origin of the other. On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to >be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause. Most >translations favor reading two but the UBS has moved in favor of the first >from the 3d edition to the 4th edition. What I would like to hear from >someone who can do a search in the Greek text of the hina clauses is the >number of cases where John's hina clauses differ when there are more than >one verb tense associated after a hina. OR is it common for the two verbs >to differ and therefore have the second verb introduce another thought >building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated >as well. > Mike,verses 7 & 8 are closely tied together both in meaning and in textual history. First the text. In the N-A27 you can note that in verse 7 several of the witnesses (aleph, psi, 33, M) have the future AITHSESQE instead of the the aorist AITHSASQE. Interestingly the same witnesses have the future in verse 8, GENHSESQE instead of GENHSQE. Perhaps these witnesses saw a connection between "asking" in faith and "becoming" a disciple. In verse 8 the N-A25 had the future in the text. However, there is not much difference in meaning between the aorist imperative and the future used as an imperative. I think scribes would have been more tempted to change aorist impv. to future. so that the UBS4 is probably correct in both 7 & 8. You say, >>On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause.<< The first verb in the hINA clause in verse 8 is FERHTE, the present subjunctive. It is combined in the clause with the aorist imperative GENHSQE so in either case you have two different tenses in the hINA clause. I wonder if we should not emphasize the causal idea in verses 7 & 8. EN TOUTW could be "for this reason" referring back to verse 7 and the hINA clause could be a further elaboration on that causal relation "that you may go on bearing much fruit and be (more of a gnomic) disciples to me." This would link the primary reason for what God did in Christ as enabling disciples to bear fruit. I do think some of the scribes connected the variant reading for the future in verse 7 with the variant reading in the future in verse 8. In their mind this linked the "asking" with "becoming" disciples. Grace & peace, Carlton L. Winbery Fogleman Professor of Religion Louisiana College Pineville, LA 71359 winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net winbery@andria.lacollege.edu From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 14 19:46:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA25074; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:46:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199903150051.BAA28475@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: tc-list Ben Shaphrut 6.1 and Latin Date: Lun, 15 Mar 99 01:52:07 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: "Liste TC-List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2081 While collating Arabic mss and comparing with other versions of Mt, I = come against this verse in the hebrew version edited by Mr Howard. In = Mt 6.1, there's an evident latinism in "lo tirs.u" - imperative = "don't want to". This seems to me the literal translation of = "nolite", usual in Latin for prohibitions. What's interesting is that = I don't see any old latin or vulgate ms that translates the Greek in = that way. Nevertheless, this seems too latin a construction - or are = there examples in texts written directly in medieval hebrew? Of = course, romance vernaculars should be considered too (I don't know = medieval castillan, so somebody else should tell us if this latinism = has survived in that language). Another point that needs to be considered. Not long ago, I found in = my old papers a letter of a specialist of the latin lectionaries - Mr = Bouhon from Lyon - to whom I had sent a list of the peraqim of Ben = Shaphrut's gospel, together with the incipits, in order to ask him if = the repartition of the pericopes was familiar to him. After looking = at some specialized works in the field of the latin lectionary, he = could say that some incipits were present in the old Hispanic = lectionary, but that half of them were found in the oldest Roman = lectionary, the lectionary of Wurzburg. The most important source for = his affirmations was the article of G. GODU, Evangiles, in = Dictionnaire d'Arch=E9ologie chr=E9tienne et de Liturgie, t. V.1 = (Paris 1922), col. 852-923 (and more specifically, for the Wurzburg = lectionary, col. 901-908). I hope these two informations will be useful to those who are = interested in the origins of Ben Shaphrut's Hebrew version. Jean V. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 14 21:02:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA25318; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:02:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199903150207.DAA29037@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: tc-list Li=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e8ge_diatessaron_question?= Date: Lun, 15 Mar 99 03:08:08 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: "Liste TC-List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1069 My question concerns Mt 6.8 in the Li=E8ge Diatessaron - want u vader = weet wale wis u behoeft, eer ghine anebedt (De Bruin, p. 46, l. 25). = Do I miss something or is the English translation of the edition of = De Bruin adding something that is not in the Dutch text when it = translates "for your Father knows well what ye need before ye pray TO = HIM"? Apparently these last two words are not in the Dutch text? Am I right or is there some morphological peculiarity of middle dutch = that I don't get here, because as a Belgian I know modern dutch, = which usually is quite enough to understand these texts, but of = course is sometimes different? Thanks to anybody who can help me! Jean V. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 16 21:10:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA19375; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:10:17 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990316201452.00caa5d4@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: jstrimm@postoffice.swbell.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:14:52 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: James Trimm Subject: tc-list Semitic NT Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 257 Shlama, There is a new website for the Hebrew/Aramaic New Testament Research Institute and the Semitic New Testament Project at: http://www.nazarene.net/hantri/ This website deals with the Hebrew and/or Aramaic Origin of the New Testament. James Trimm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 17 05:12:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA21763; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:12:33 -0500 Message-Id: <36EFD973.1F73678A@chemie.uni-bremen.de> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:33:56 +0100 From: Wieland Willker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: crosstalk@info.harpercollins.com, tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, papy@igl.ku.dk Subject: tc-list Egerton Homepage update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 312 The PAPYRUS EGERTON 2 Homepage: http://alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Egerton/Egerton_home.html A new page "Palaeography" added. Images of the Nomina Sacra added. New images of Papyrus Köln added. Canonical Parallels improved. Several minor corrections and additions. Comments welcome! Best wishes Wieland From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 17 19:10:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA28014; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:10:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199903180014.BAA09190@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: Re: tc-list Howard's response to Petersen Date: Jeu, 18 Mar 99 01:15:40 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 5223 >I must admit that I was under the impression that Dr. Howard's stance >was that Shem Tov was a witness to this putative ancient "Hebrew >Matthew" and I am pleased that this misunderstanding has been cleared >up by Dr. Howard who confirms that his primary point was only that >the Shem Tov text of Matthew predated Shem-Tov's Evan Bohan. After reading Dr Howard's article, I must say that I'm having the = same impression as Jack. Some passages in Dr Howard's book really = gave me the impression that he claimed to have discovered _the_ = Hebrew original of Mt or something very close to it. It's interesting = to see that such was not his intention. Some points of his answer leave me perplex, though. Especially his = refusal to consider the Liege harmony as a valuable witness to the = text of Mt. Of course, it's a harmony, but if really one wants to = avoid harmonized passages, there are large sections that are purely = matthean. Think only of the first two chapters of Mt - and many other = sections of course. It's really possible to confront Shem Tov with = Liege for such sections - and it's quite a big amount of text. When I = work on my Arabic versions of the Gospels, I'm used to look at other = versions, and at the medieval Gospel harmonies, to find parallels to = my variants. And I can't deny that, from that perspective, Shem Tov = seems to me to be another very valuable witness to the same kind of = text that we find in the harmonized tradition. Even though we have to = recognize with Dr Howard that Shem Tov has its own peculiar variants = that have to be explained too. I do not want to theoretize here on = the exact origin of Shem Tov. I don't study it much for itself, but I = can say that when looking for specific variants, I found it to be = often in agreement with some harmonized witnesses. I think that Dr = Howard gave us a very interesting text, but, to take the most of it, = he should give more attention to the possible links between his text = and harmonies like the duch or italian ones. Without denying the = peculiar character of his text (e.g. the very interesting variants = about John the baptist), this would give him a broader perspective on = its insertion in the general NT tradition. Dr Howard, spreekt u = nederlands? :-). Also, as I said in an earlier post, not only variants are interesting = for determining the origins of a text. Dr Petersen pointed to a = probable mistake in the interpretation of a latin word. I told the = list I thought to have found another latinism in Mt 6.1, even though = this very construction is not attested in the mss of the vetus latina = or the vulgate. Such points, I think, are decisive when trying to = ascertain the origins of a text. I would like also to give my few cents on the point of puns and = alliterations. (1) Years ago, I read the book of J. Carmignac, who tries to find a = Hebrew origin to the Gospels by reconstructing Hebrew passages, = supposed to have alliterations in them. Also, passages where Mt and = Lk were divergent from one another (e. g. Many prophets and kings/and = righteous ones wished to see... - hebrew sarim/yesharim, only a yodh = of difference) could, according to Carmignac, be explained from = Hebrew words that were misread or misinterpreted. I remember to have = controlled a few such passages in Dr Howard's edition, and of course = never were they confirmed. This made me aware of the fact that it's = very easy to construct hypotheses, but very difficult to have the = sources confirm them... (2) Years ago too, when I was studying theology, I remember that we = used to find puns and alliterations, and even plays of words... in = the French Bible! Every translator is doomed to produce some blunders = when he translates. I remember a riddle we had in that time, and we = laughed a lot about it: when was the first sectarian movement = founded? Answer: the second day of creation, because in Gen 1.10 = according to the french Bible of Louis Segond, when loudly read, one = hears: "Dieu appela le sectaire" (sec terre). There was also a = mysterious passage of Isaiah (55.1) saying that if you're thirsty you = should go to a zoological garden ("venez aux eaux" or "au zoo"). Etc, = etc... I don't remember the other ones, but we had a whole = collection! Many alliterations and word-plays can be accidental in a = translation. This is not to deny en bloc those that Dr Howard points = to, but my impression is that in order to convince everybody, much = more in-depth analysis should probably be conducted. After saying that, I wish to thank both scholars: Dr Howard for = giving us the edition of a very interesting witness of the text, and = Dr Howard for pointing to its links to the western harmonized = tradition. I hope that their dialogue will be fruitful and = instructive for all of us! Jean V. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 19 10:30:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08678; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:30:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:30:01 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list AIBI 6 Conference/Call for papers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 19126 Here's an annoucement about a conference that list members might be interested in. *********************************************************** James R. Adair, Jr. Director, ATLA Center for Electronic Texts in Religion Listowner, tc-list *********************************************************** ASSOCIATION=20 INTERNATIONALE=20 BIBLE ET INFORMATIQUE (A.I.B.I.)=20 c/o CIB-MAREDSOUS B-5537 Den=8Ee=20 T=8El.: 32(0)82 69 96 47 Fax.: 32(0)82 22 32 69=20 E-mail: CIBMARE@FUNDP.AC.BE SIXI=E9ME CONFERENCE INTERNATIONALE (A.I.B.I.-6) SIXTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE (A.I.B.I.-6)=20 THE BIBLE AND COMPUTERS: THE BIBLE FROM ALPHA TO BYTE (a new millennium)=20 LA BIBLE ET INFORMATIQUE: LA BIBLE DE L'E ALPHABET =CB L'OCTET (un nouveau mill=8Enaire)=20 DIE BIBLE UND INFORMATIK: DIE BIBEL VON ALPHA BIS ZUM BYTE (ein neues Jahrtausend)=20 Stellenbosch, 17-21 July 2000 Conference Mailing Address: Prof. Johann Cook=20 Department of Ancient Studies, Faculty of Arts,=20 Private Bag XI, University of Stellenbosch,=20 7602 Matieland, SOUTH AFRICA=20 Tel.: 027-21-8083207 Fax.: 027-21-8083480 E-mail: COOK@akad.sun.ac.za INVITATION The A.I.B.I. invites you to participate in the 6th International Conference on the Bible and Computers. It will take place in Stellenbosch, South Africa from 18 through 22 July 2000. The Department of Ancient Studies at the University of Stellenbosch will host this first conference in the new millennium. Prof. Johann Cook will act as president and organiser of this meeting. English will be the principal language of the conference. However, contributions can also be presented in French, Spanish and German.=20 EINLADUNG Die A.I.B.I. l=8Adt Sie ein zum 6. A.I.B.I. Kongress, der vom 18. bis zum 22. Juli 2000 in Stellenbosch, S=9Fdafrika stattfinden wird. Die Abteilung Antike Studien der Universit=8At Stellenbosch wird als Gastgeber dieses ersten Kongresses im neuen Jahrtausend auftreten. Prof. Dr. Johann Cook wird als Pr=8Asident und Organisator des Kongresses auftreten. Englisch wir= d die Hauptsprache des Kongresses sein, aber Beitr=8Age d=9Frfen auch auf Franz=9Asisch, Spanisch und Deutsch angeboten werden. =20 THEME=20 The Bible from Alpha to Byte:=20 The A.I.B.I. conferences have dealt with a number of issues over the past 15 years. The 1st meeting took place in Louvain-la-Neuve in 1985 and concentrated on the TEXT. In 1988 in Jerusalem the theme was METHODS, TOOLS and RESULTS. The conference in T=9Fbingen in 1991 had METHODOLOGICAL ISSUES as its focus. In Amsterdam the IMPACT OF COMPUTERS ON BIBLICAL STUDIES was considered and finally TRANSLATION AND TRANSMISSION was the topic at the last meeting in Aix-en-Provence. The executive committee in the persons of Johann Cook and Ferdinand Poswick met in Leiden in July 1998 and decided to be less prescriptive for A.I.B.I.-6. Seeing that we are on the eve of a new millennium, it was decided to leave the field open for creative and innovative topics. Contributors will be requested to envisage the future of their research as broadly as possible in terms of the evolution of technology, computers, internet, multimedia, miniaturization, cultural pluralism, loss of text-literacy, massmedia and constraints on the expression of opinion, new tools for exploring archaeological materials, world organization of research and knowledge, etc. In short, how should the Bible be made relevant via the computer in the 21st century?=20 THEMA=20 Die Bibel von Alpha bis zum Byte:=20 Die A.I.B.I. Kongresse haben in den letzten 15 Jahren eine Reihe von Fragen untersucht. Der erste Kongress fand in Louvain-la-Neuve in 1985 statt und konzentrierte sich auf den TEXT. 1988 in Jerusalem war das Thema METHODEN, WERKZEUGE und ERGEBNISSE. Der Kongress in T=9Fbingen im Jahr 1991 hatte METHODISCHE FRAGEN zum Thema. In Amsterdam besch=8Aftigten Kongressg=8Anger sich mit der Frage =9Fber den EINFLUSS DER COMPUTER AUF BIBLISCHE STUDIEN. =86BERSETZUNG UND =86BERTRAGUNG war das Objekt der Forschung bei der letzten Begegnung in Aix-en-Provence. Das Exekutivkomitee, Johann Cook und Ferdinand Poswick, ist im Juli 1998 in Leiden zusammengekommen und hat beschlossen, Forschern mehr Freiheit zu lassen bei der Auswahl der Themen f=9Fr die A.I.B.I.-6. Weil wir am Voraben= d eines neue Jahrtausends stehen, wurde beschlossen, Mitgliedern die M=9Aglichkeit zu geben bei der Themenauswahl kreativ und innovativ zu sein. Deshalb werden Beitragende gebeten, die Zukunft ihrer Forschung zu konzipieren im Hinblick auf die Entwicklung der Technologie, Computer, das Internet, Multimedia, Miniaturisierung, kultureller Pluralismus, Verlust von Textbildung, Massenmedien und Zw=8Angebei der freien Meinungs=8Ausserun= g, neue Werkzeuge zur Erforschung von arch=8Aologische Artefakten, weltweite Organisation von Forschung und Wissen, usw. Kurz gesagt, wie sollte die Bibel relevant gemacht werden mit dem Computer im 21. Jahrhundert!=20 CONTRIBUTIONS The conference will consist of two parts. The first two days (Monday and Tuesday) will be taken up with practical workshops. On Monday morning participants will be guided into the "mysteries" of computer know-how, with emphasis on hands-on practical experience. In the afternoon Computer and Grammar will be the theme. On Tuesday morning the Computer and multi-media will be discussed, while the issue of the Computer and textual issues will be addressed on Tuesday afternoon.=20 The second part of the conference (Wednesday-Friday) will be structured as follows:=20 Section 1. Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.=20 Section 2. The Greek Bible (Septuagint).=20 Section 3. The New Testament.=20 Each section will consist of a keynote address of 60 minutes, selected by the executive committee. Thereafter short papers of 30 minutes will be presented.=20 Those interested in reading a paper should return the attached form with the title and an indication of the content of the paper immediately to the Secretary of the A.I.B.I.: A.I.B.I.-6 contributions c/o CIB-Maredsous, B-5537 Den=8Ee - Belgium - Fax 32(0)82223269. E-mail CIBMARE@FUNDP.AC.BE BEITR=80GE=20 Der Kongress besteht aus zwei Teilen. W=8Ahrend der ersten zwei Tagen (Montag und Dinstag) werden einige "Workshops" stattfinden. Am Montag-Morgen kriegen Mitglieder die Gelegenheit um die "Mysterien" der Computer know-how zu bekommen. Hier geht es prim=8Ar =9Fber praktische =86b= ung. W=8Ahrend des Mittags ist Computer und Grammatik zum Thema. Computer und di= e Multi-media wird am Dinstag-Morgen am Schlag kommen. Schliesslich wird das Thema die Computer und textuele Fragen angesprochen am Dinstag-Mittag.=20 Der zweite Teil des Kongresses (Mittwoch bis Freitag) wird in folgenden Sektionen strukturiert:=20 Sektion 1. Die Hebr=8Aische Bibel / Altes Testament.=20 Sektion 2. Die Griechische Bibel (Septuaginta).=20 Sektion 3. Das neue Testament.=20 Jede Sektion beginnt mit einer "Keynote address" von 60 Minuten, die von dem Exekutivkomitee gew=8Ahlt ist. Nachher kriegt Mitglieder die Gelegenheiten f=9Fr kurze Beitr=8Age von 30 Minuten.=20 Diejenige die gern einen Beitrag machen m=9Achten, sollten unverz=9Fglich d= en Abschnitt der letzten Seite zur=9Fckschickt an das A.I.B.I.-Sekretariat: A.I.B.I.-6 contributions, c/o CIB-Maredsous, B-5537 Den=8Ee - Belgium - Fax 32(0)82223269. E-mail CIBMARE@FUNDP.AC.BE. Sie brauchen einen Titel und einen Hinweis auf den Inhalt des Beitrags.=20 DEADLINES=20 1. 31 May 1999:=20 Abstract submitted to the Programme Committee (A.I.B.I.-6, c/o Prof. Johann Cook, Chairman of the Programme Committee, Department of Ancient Studies, University of Stellenbosch, Private Bag XI, 7602 Matieland, SOUTH AFRICA. Fax-027-21-808-3480; e-mail: COOK@ADM.SUN.AC.ZA).=20 2. 20 November 1999:=20 Selection of papers by the Programme Committee.=20 3. 10 January 2000:=20 Submission of the final text of the summary of the contribution as it will appear in the Programme to the Programme Committee. The summary should not exceed two pages; it should be submitted in electronic format with a specification of the programme used, etc. The heading should contain the title, the author's name, address, institution and the title of the contribution.=20 4. 15 March 2000:=20 Registration forms will be sent to all contributors and/or potential participants.=20 5. 31 May 2000:=20 Draft of complete text of contributions to Prof. Cook.=20 6. 22 July 2000:=20 Camera ready text of contribution (hard copy and on disket).=20 7. 30 October 2000 Final deadline for submission of contributions for publication by CIB-Maredsous.=20 These should either be "camera-ready" (A4 format, with a full and suitably documented electronic version); or in the form of a Post-Script file which should be well-documented (machine, environment, word processing or CAP, version, file name), and with a hard paper copy enclosed.=20 8. Publication:=20 End of 2000, beginning of 2001.=20 TERMINE=20 1. 31. Mai 1999:=20 Die Zusammenfassung des vorgeschlagenen Beitrags muss beim Programmausschuss eingegangen sein (A.I.B.I.-6 contributions, c/o Prof. Johann Cook, Chairman of the Programme Committee, Department of Ancient Studies, University of Stellenbosch, Private Bag XI, 7602 Matieland, SOUTH AFRICA. Fax-027-21-808-3480; e-mail: COOK@ADM.SUN.AC.ZA).=20 2. 20. November 1999:=20 Entscheidungen des Programmausschusses =9Fber die Einf=9Fgung oder Nichtber=9Fcksichtigung der vorgeschlagenen Beitr=8Age und =9Fber ihren Pla= tz im Programm. Best=8Atigung bei den Beitragsautoren.=20 3. 10. Januar 2000:=20 Versand des endg=9Fltigen Textes der Zusammenfassung des Beitrags an den Programmenausschuss. Diese Zusammenfassung sollte h=9Achstens 2 Seiten sein= , mit einer elektronischen Kopie des ausf=9Fhrlich dokumentierten Textes (Textverarbeitungsprogramme, uzw); weiter muss die der Name des Autors, Adresse, Einrichtung und die Titel des Beitrags umfassen.=20 4. 15. M=8Arz 2000:=20 Versand des Einschreibungsformulars an alle Personen, die m=9Aglicherweise einen Beitrag leisten und/oder teilnehmen werden.=20 5. 31. Mai 2000:=20 Versand des vollst=8Andigen Textentwurfes f=9Fr den Beitrag an den Programmausschus (Prof. Cook).=20 6. 22. Juli 2000:=20 Hinterlegung entweder eine "Camera-ready" Text des Beitrags (Format A4, mit einer ungek=9Frtzten, ausreichend dokumentarisch belegten elektronische= n Kopie) oder in Form einer ausreichend belegten Post-Script-Datei (Maschine, Umfeld, Textverarbeitung oder PAO, Fassung, Name der Datei) mit einem Ausdruck des Inhaltes auf Papier als Anlage.=20 7. 30. Oktober 2000:=20 Schlusstermin f=9Fr die Hinterlegung der Beitr=8Age, die in CIB-Maredsous ver=9Affentlicht werden sollen.=20 8. Ver=9Affentlichung:=20 Ver=9Affentlichung alle Beitr=8Age am Ende 2000, oder beginn 1998.=20 REGISTRATION VENUE - COST VENUE:=20 Stellenbosch is a university town where approximately 15,000 students live and study. The town is some 50 km from Cape Town at the foot of the beautiful mountains in the Western Cape. It is 20 km away from the sea. The University of Stellenbosch is situated 40 km from the International Airport of Cape Town. All participants will be met at the airport and brought to Stellenbosch. The time of arrival MUST be sent to the organisor in advance.=20 DATES:=20 Workshops: Monday and Tuesday (18th and 19th of July) (traditional barbeque Monday evening).=20 Papers: Wednesday-Friday (20th -22nd of July).=20 Excursion into the Stellenbosch wine district: Thursday afternoon.=20 Banquet: Thursday evening.=20 COSTS:=20 Costs are naturally dependent on various factors. They will be determined at the current exchange rate.=20 a) Registration: Includes the programme and summary of all contributions - organization - coffee breaks - barbeque - excursion - banquet and subscription to the Proceedings of the Conference.=20 A.I.B.I. members:=20 Before 30th of May 2000 =3D US$ 300=20 After 30th of May 2000 =3D US$ 325=20 Non-members A.I.B.I.:=20 Before 30th of May 2000 =3D US$ 325=20 After 30th of May 2000 =3D US$ 350=20 b) Accommodation:=20 There are numerous possibilities. As the conference is taking place during the winter vacation of the university, cheaper accommodation in university residences is available. The prices are as follows:=20 Bed alone - US$ 20=20 Meals:=20 Breakfast - US$ 7 Mid-day: US$ 12 Evening: US$ 10=20 There are also excellent hotels available in Stellenbosch for those who want more expensive lodgings. Relevant addresses and information concerning accommodation and possible excursions will be made available to those who are interested. Stellenbosch is situated in the southern part of South Africa. Excursions can also be made to the northern parts of the country, such as the Kruger National Game Reserve.=20 c) Flight costs:=20 The organiser is currently involved in discussions with a travelling agent. If tickets are bought in South Africa a discount of up to 15% can be arranged. The name of the agent as well as applicable information will be included in the brochure. People planning to come to SOUTH AFRICA will be well advised to make use of these special offers.=20 ANMELDUNGEN STANDORT - KOSTEN=20 STANDORT:=20 Stellenbosch ist eine Universit=8Atstadt wo ungef=8Ahr 15,000 Studenten studieren. Die Stadt ist 50 km weit vom Kapstadt in die Umgebung von grossen Berge in die westliche Kap. Das Meer ist nur 20 km weg. Die Universit=8At Stellenbosch ist situiert 40 km weit vom internationalen Flughafen von Kapstadt. Alle Mitglieder werden bei dem Flughafen abgeholt und nach Stellenbosch gebracht. Die Zeit der Ankomst der Kongressg=8Anger MUSST deshalb zu Programmausschuss geschickt werden.=20 DATEN:=20 "Workshops": Montag und Dinstag (18. und 19. Juli) (traditioneles Bratfest - Montag-Abend).=20 Beitr=8Age: Mittwoch-Freitag (20.-22. Juli).=20 Ausflug zum Stellenbosch Wein Bezirkt: Donnerstag-Mittag.=20 Bankett: Donnerstag-Abend.=20 KOSTEN:=20 Kosten sind abh=8Angig von vielen Faktoren. Der Richtpreis gilt unter Vorbehalt der Best=8Atigung beim Versand der Einschreibungsformulare.=20 a) Einschreibungen:=20 Umfasst der Programm und Zusammenfassung der Beitr=8Age - Organisation - Kaffeepausen - Ausflug - Bankett und Bezug der Aufzeichnungen des Kolloquiums.=20 A.I.B.I.-Mitglieder:=20 Einschreibung vor dem 30. Mai 2000 =3D US$ 300=20 Nach dem 30. Mai 2000 =3D US$ 325=20 Nichtmitglieder von A.I.B.I.:=20 Einschreibung vor dem 30. Mai 2000 =3D US$ 325=20 Nach dem 30. Mai 2000 =3D US$ 350=20 b) Unterkunft:=20 Er sind viele M=9Aglichkeiten. Weil das Kongress w=8Ahrend der Winterferien stattfinden werden habe die Universit=8At Unterkunft in den Universit=8Atswohnheime. Die Preise sind wie folgende:=20 =86bernachtung - US$ 20 (per Person)=20 Mahlzeit:=20 Fr=9Fhst=9Fck - US$ 7 Mittags: US$ 12 Abends: US$ 10=20 In und in der Umgebung von Stellenbosch sind manche Hotels und Pensionen. Addressen und Information in Bezug auf Unterkunft und Ausfl=9Fge werden zu denjenigen geschicht worden die ein Interesse haben. Stellenbosch ist situiert in den s=9Fdlichen Teil von S=9Fdafrika. Es ist m=9Aglich Ausfl=9F= ge zu machen zu den n=9Ardlichen Teile des Landes, z.B. nach dem Kruger nationale Wildpark.=20 c) Flugzeug Preise:=20 Der Vorsitz ist zur Zeit besch=8Aftigt mit Diskussionen =9Fber billige Prei= se. Wenn Billeten in S=9Fdafrika gekauft werden kann man bis 15% Rabatt bekommen. Der Name des Vermittlers und passende Information wird zu denjenigen geschickt werden die interessiert sind. Personen die planen nach S=9Fdafrika zu reisen sollten diese M=9Aglichkeiten bedenken.=20 PROGRAMME COMMITTEE / COMIT=83 PROGRAMME / PROGRAMM KOMITEE President / Pr=8Esidence / Vorsitz:=20 PROFESSOR Johann Cook=20 Department of Ancient Studies, Faculty of Arts,=20 University of Stellenbosch, Private Bag XI,=20 7602 Matieland, SOUTH AFRICA.=20 Tel.: 027-21-8083207 Fax.: 027-21-8083480 E-mail: COOK@akad.sun.ac.za Members / Membres / Mitgleiter=20 Theo Bothma (University of Pretoria, SA)=20 Ph. Cassuto (Aix-en-Provence, France)=20 JC de Moor (Kampen, Holland)=20 AD Forbes (Pasedena, USA)=20 F Polak (Tel Aviv, Israel)=20 R-F Poswick (Maredsous, Belgium) H Schweizer (T=9Fbingen, Germany) N Timmins (Edinburgh, UK)=20 L Vegas Montaner (Madrid, Spain) M Vervenne (Leuven, Belgium).=20 The Faculty of Arts of the University of Stellenbosch, where the conference will take place, is situated in the center of the University town. It accommodates the largest number of students (circa 3000) at the university. It has excellent facilities available for the conference. There are a large number of computers in large halls connected with the internet. In addition smaller and larger seminar rooms are readily available. All rooms are equipped with modern technology for the purposes of communicating research results.=20 This is a map of the location of Stellenbosch in relation to other main centres in the Western Cape.=20 Hombre men's residence is a brand new hostel in the main street of the university campus, Victoria Street. It can accommodate 285 people in 86 single and 195 double rooms. It is a 10-minute walk to the Arts building through the heart of Stellenbosch, student residences and other facilities, such as banks, shopping centres, cinemas and restaurants.=20 A.I.B.I.: 6TH CONFERENCE=20 STELLENBOSCH: 18TH - 22ND OF JULY 2000=20 CONTRIBUTION PROPOSAL=20 PROPOSITION DE CONTRIBUTION=20 Name:=20 Mr., Mrs., Ms ____________________________________________________________________ Title: ___________________________________________________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________ Tel: _________________________ ___________________________________________________ Fax: ________________________ ___________________________________________________ E-mail: ______________________ Proposes a contribution of 25 min. with the following title: ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ This contribution would be appropriate for the following section(s):=20 Section 1: The Hebrew Bible / Old Testament Section 2: The Greek Bible / Septuagint=20 Section 3: The New Testament / First Testament=20 I will need the following hardware equipment for presentation: _____________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________= _____ Please keep me informed about this A.I.B.I.-6 conference.=20 Place____________________ Day: ____________________ Signature: _____________________ Send back as soon as possible to:=20 A.I.B.I.-6 Conference=20 c/o CIB-Maredsous, B-5537 Den=8Ee-Belgium Fax 32(0) 82 22 32 69 E-mail: CIBMARE@FUNDP.AC.BE=20 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 10:55:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA12862; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:55:35 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: tc-list For sale: Codex Ephraemi Syri Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:01:04 +0100 Message-Id: <000101be72ea$dbf2f8c0$67566686@chemie.unibremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 577 A German Second hand bookshop is offering: 7. Ephraem. - Codex Ephraemi Syri rescriptus sive fragmenta veteris (et novi) testamenti e codice Graeco Parisiensi ...ed. C. Tischendorf. 2 Bde. Leipzig 1843-45. 4°; 3 Bl., 11, 177 S., 1 Faks.; 4 Bl., 358 S., 1 Faks. Ln d. Zt. 280.- [SW: Theologie, Ephraem, Biblia, Griechisch] ==> themen. Verlag und Antiquariat [D-50676 Köln] 2 Volumes: DM 280,- Search for it in: http://www.zvab.com/ (you get 90 hits for "Codex"!) Best wishes Wieland -------------------- willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 12:05:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13009; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:16 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" , "B-Greek" Subject: tc-list Differences NA26-27 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:09:31 +0100 Message-Id: <000101be72f4$6bcf7fa0$50066686@wieland> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 387 In the book "Neuer sprachlicher Schluessel zum GNT" (New key) W. Haubeck and H.v. Siebenthal write: NA-27 is identical with NA-26 with one exception: 2Tim 2:25. I have compared both versions but can't find any difference. Anyone any idea what is meant? Best wishes Wieland ------------------------ Wieland Willker willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 12:05:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13019; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:18 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: tc-list P66: John 07-52: o profhths Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:09:30 +0100 Message-Id: <000001be72f4$6b386fc0$50066686@wieland> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 440 NA-27 reads: John 07-52 apekriqhsan kai eipan autw mh kai su ek ths galilaias ei eraunhson kai ide oti ek ths galilaias profhths ouk egeiretai P66* reads: ths galilaias o profhths The "O" seems to be corrected by erasion. Is it correct that this variant is not noted in the apparatus? Why is it not noted? Best wishes Wieland ------------------------ Wieland Willker willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 12:35:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA13261; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:35:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001be72f4$6b386fc0$50066686@wieland> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:36:18 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list P66: John 07-52: o profhths Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1069 On 3/20/99, Wieland Willker wrote: >NA-27 reads: >John 07-52 apekriqhsan kai eipan autw mh kai su ek ths galilaias ei >eraunhson kai ide oti ek ths galilaias profhths ouk egeiretai > >P66* reads: ths galilaias o profhths >The "O" seems to be corrected by erasion. > >Is it correct that this variant is not noted in the apparatus? Why is it >not noted? It's worth remembering that the variants noted in NA26/27 are essentially the same as the variants noted in NA25. With only minor exceptions, no new variants were added. The Nestle-Aland edition makes no claim to include all variants of the manuscripts it collates. It doesn't even list the differences between its text and the TR (something which I have always though a severe lack). Obviously one can only wish that NA27 were fuller (it would be wonderful if someone would combine the accuracy of NA27 with the fuller set of variants in Merk, for instance). But it is only a pocket edition.... Bob Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com "The one thing we learn from history -- is that no one ever learns from history." From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 15:13:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA13673; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:13:24 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990320201608.006d65d4@utc.campuscw.net> X-Sender: cierpke.utc@utc.campuscw.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:16:08 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list Differences NA26-27 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 984 Wieland: I've checked my NA26, NA27, UBS3 (corrected) and UBS4 and all seem to have the exact same reading Kevin At 06:09 PM 3/20/99 +0100, you wrote: >In the book "Neuer sprachlicher Schluessel zum GNT" (New key) >W. Haubeck and H.v. Siebenthal write: >NA-27 is identical with NA-26 with one exception: 2Tim 2:25. >I have compared both versions but can't find any difference. > >Anyone any idea what is meant? > >Best wishes > Wieland >------------------------ >Wieland Willker >willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de >http://purl.org/WILLKER/index.html > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Professor of New Testament Greek Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campuscw.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 20 19:06:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA14306; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:06:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199903210010.BAA15309@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: Re: tc-list P66: John 07-52: o profhths Date: Dim, 21 Mar 99 01:11:50 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 660 >Is it correct that this variant is not noted in the apparatus? Why is it >not noted? > Unfortunately, scores of important variants are not noted (one day I = found scores of variants in codex Bezae that were not in NA's = apparatus), while other that seem trivial are. I don't know why. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 21 23:36:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA17956; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:36:58 -0500 Message-ID: <36F5C9D5.222F@total.net> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:40:53 -0500 From: Mike and Jeanne Arcieri X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TC-LIST@SHEMESH.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list A. Dain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 117 Fellow TC-LISTers, Does anyone know if an English version of Dain's "Les Manuscrits" is available?? Tks. Mike A. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 22 04:09:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA18530; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 04:08:58 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: Re: tc-list Differences NA26-27 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:13:50 +0100 Message-Id: <000001be750d$76f75d60$67566686@chemie.unibremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 735 >From B-Greek: ----------- "Perry L. Stepp" We had a thread on this topic back in January: >I ran across a disagreement in the "pointing" of a passage: in 2 Tim 2.25, >the NA 26 reads the optative DWiJ (delta-omega with iota subscript-eta), >while the NA 27 at the same passage reads the subjunctive DWJi >(delta-omega-eta with iota subscript). (Westcott/Hort note the possibility >of the different readings, and place the optative in the text and the >subjunctive in the margin.) How do we describe this bit of minutiae--it's >not orthography, it really *is* a difference in the text. ------------- Best wishes Wieland -------------------- willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 22 10:35:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA20310; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: <45D54DA9E035D21199F200A0C9E047A2B3A4@oak_pdc.oakhill.ac.uk> From: Peter Head To: "'tc-list'" Subject: tc-list LXX Psa 13.3 par. Rom 3.13-18 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:38:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1358 This verse in the LXX has a long section in parallel with Romans 3.13-18 (itself a catena of citations from Ps 5.10; 139.4; 10.7 (LXX9.28); Isa 59.7f; Ps 35.2). It seems to be present in all available LXX manuscripts. The presence of this material in the LXX is somewhat unusual, although since the LXX in the textual form available to us is essentially a Christian production it is regularly the case that NT texts influence the text-form of the LXX. It seems more unusual that a long collection of "foreign" material would be included into the LXX. Justin Martyr's famous "The Lord reigns *from the tree*" (Ps 95.1-; Apology I. 41; cf. Dial. 73) might be a rather shorter parallel. Does anyone know more about this sort of thing? Bibliography? (There is a brief discussion in Rahlfs, _Psalmi cum Odis_ Goettingen, V&R, 1931, pp. 30-32). The verses also (according to BHS) found there way into 2 Hebrew MSS. This seems even more unusual given Jewish resistance to the LXX because of its friendliness to Christian interests (hence alternative Greek translations: Theod. Sym. Aquil. etc.). What were these MSS? Do they have other distinctive texts? Any ideas would be welcome Cheers Peter ............................................ Peter M. Head Oak Hill College LONDON N14 4PS peterh@oakhill.ac.uk ............................................ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 23 17:41:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA29535; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:41:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:41:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199903232241.RAA29530@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:12:45 +0100 (MET) From: "H.P.S.Bakker" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc: A.A.den_Hollander@th.vu.nl Subject: Re: tc-list Liège diatessaron question Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2231 >My question concerns Mt 6.8 in the Liège Diatessaron - want u vader weet >wale wis u behoeft, eer ghine anebedt (De Bruin, p. 46, l. 25). Do I miss >something or is the English translation of the edition of De Bruin adding >something that is not in the Dutch text when it translates 'for your >Father knows well what ye need before ye pray TO HIM'? Apparently these >last two words are not in the Dutch text? > >Am I right or is there some morphological peculiarity of middle dutch that >I don't get here, because as a Belgian I know modern dutch, which usually >is quite enough to understand these texts, but of course is sometimes >different? Perhaps it helps if you cut up the scriptio continua further: "eer ghi ne anebedet." "ghi" is translated with 'ye' and "ne" with 'to him'. In this case the writing convention follows speech where the unstressed "ne" is pronounced together with the preceding pronoun. One should be aware of agglutinising pronouns (which are easily added or omitted) in other vernacular versions as well. Cf. the same passage in the Tuscan Diatessaron tradition: - prima che voi adomandiate (MSS S and R) - prima che voi l'adomandiate (MS L) - prima che voi il adomandiate (MSS PT) I do not think that the variation goes back to different Greek Vorlagen. Think also of the same passage in modern French: avant que tu ne l' invoque. Here the addition of the negative element "ne" may cause confusion with a semi-francophone. Finally, a caveat for TC-ers consulting the Middle Dutch versions: beware of the double negation (which still exists in French): "en" does not always mean 'and'. Cf. Jhn 5.23c in a MS from Brussels: Die niet en eren den sone Those who (do) not honour the son die en eren oec niet den vader diene ghesent heeft those honour also not the father who him sent has Please note in this passage another case of "-ne". (I send a copy or this email to a fellow-Diatessaronite who is not on the list. August den Hollander is the specialist in Middle Dutch Bible traditions.) dr H.P.S. Bakker Slavic Seminar University of Amsterdam Spuistraat 210 1012 VT Amsterdam tel. +31 20 525 3811 fax. +31 20 525 3052 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 24 07:19:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA02425; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:19:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199903241224.NAA02735@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: Re: tc-list Li=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=cbge_diatessaron_question?= Date: Mer, 24 Mar 99 13:25:24 +0100 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 680 Mr Bakker, Thank you for your detailed response to my question about the Li=E8ge = Diatessaron. Somebody had already told me about the double negations, = but I was not aware of the problem of suffixed pronouns. The big = lesson I learnt is that I should carefully read a grammar of middle = Dutch! Jean V. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 24 20:46:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA06282; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:46:38 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list P66: John 07-52: o profhths Message-ID: <19990324.204431.4479.1.seventh.guardian@juno.com> References: <000001be72f4$6b386fc0$50066686@wieland> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,20-21,23-24,28-35 From: M A Robinson Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:50:16 EST Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1401 On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:09:30 +0100 "Wieland Willker" writes: >NA-27 reads: >John 07-52 apekriqhsan kai eipan autw mh kai su ek ths galilaias ei >eraunhson kai ide oti ek ths galilaias profhths ouk egeiretai > >P66* reads: ths galilaias o profhths >The "O" seems to be corrected by erasion. > >Is it correct that this variant is not noted in the apparatus? Why is >it not noted? Actually, the variant *is* noted in the NA27 apparatus, but it is buried within the cryptic "p(66*)" cited as supporting the main text (which occurs without the article before PROFHTHS). The way to find the reading of minority Greek witnesses enclosed in parentheses is to consult Appendix 2, "Variae Lectiones Minores", where under Jn 7:52 one finds a reference to the transposition variant (~), with "ut txt, sed add O a. PROFHTHS P66* ". NA26 did not contain this appendix, so it instead included the P66* variant in its main apparatus. If I recall my collation data correctly, I think there is also one non-significant minuscule which also reads O PROFHTHS in Jn 7:52, though without a search through my collation sheets I could not tell you which minuscule that might be.. ============================================================== Maurice A. Robinson, Ph. D. Professor of Greek and New Testament Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary Wake Forest, North Carolina, USA From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 25 10:25:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09539; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:25:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:30:48 -0500 (EST) From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Philippians 2:6 and 1:1 translations In-Reply-To: <19990324.204431.4479.1.seventh.guardian@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3254 Greetings, The verse Phil 2:6 is quite interesting. It presents some problems for translators, and is often mistranslated, it seems. The original Greek is, "os en morphe theou iparkhon oukh arpagmon egesato to einai isa theo" meaning literally, "Who in the form of God subsisting (iparkhon), deemed (egesato) it not robbery (arpagmon) to be equal with God" KJV follows very closely, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" And here is the standard (and somewhat problematic) "modern" translation, NIV: "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" Also followed by NASB, RSV, WE, etc. The implication here is that equality can either be retained, or given up on orders of God. The third possibility, that equality with God can also be challenged, and superiority demanded (as rebellious angels did in times of yore) is not implied at all. But this third possibility, on the other hand, is clearly implied in the Greek. Also Darby gives an interesting variation of KJV, "Who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine [=robbery] to be on an equality with God" The slight difference from KJV is that, according to Darby, the equality comes through a little more clearly as a potential object of robbery, whereas in KJV the exact meaning of "robbery" remains more vague. What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. In other words, the Greek conveys a very special gnosis and a very special metaphysical world view that is missed by modern translators. All in all, I think Darby translation is probably the best. Any opinions? Also, what about the "bishops and deacons" (episkopois kai diakonois) in v. 1:1? This does seem like a later gloss to me (also the view of some other scholars). It seems unlikely that "bishops and deacons" existed during Paul's lifetime. KJV/RSV translates "episkopois kai diakonois" as "bishops and deacons", but the more "modern" translations seem to politely mistranslate this verse. Perhaps trying to avoid the question of what else may have been added to this epistle by later editors? Regards, Yuri. PS: These items came up as a result of a more general discussion of Philippians on Crosstalk-L. For more context, you may look up this and other articles at eGroups, http://www.egroups.com/list/crosstalk/5934.html Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 25 13:25:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA10939; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:25:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199903251825.NAA10934@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:27:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Philippians 2:6 and 1:1 translations Priority: normal References: <19990324.204431.4479.1.seventh.guardian@juno.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1565 [snip] > What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" > translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally > one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, > and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion > brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to > restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the > Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the > rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. *yawn* Not only is this off-topic for TC-list, but it's nothing more than the same tired old stuff that Arians have been preaching for centuries. The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was ever an angel; as for the meaning of harpagmos, see Moulton- Milligan and BAG, to name just a couple. TDNT 1:473-474 gives a full exposition of the 3 possible meanings of the word and treats all of them grammatically, concluding that the meaning is "He did not regard equality with God as a gain, either in the sense of something not to be let slip, or in the sense of something not to be left unutilised." IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has been answered many, many, many times and it's high time it was put to bed for good. And since this subject has nothing at all to do with textual criticism, that will be my final word on this subject in this forum. Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 25 16:22:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA12114; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:22:49 -0500 From: lakr Message-Id: <199903252127.NAA24924@netcom13.netcom.com> Subject: tc-list Ga 4:14 (was Phil 2:6 and 1:1) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:27:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903251825.NAA10934@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> from "Dave Washburn" at Mar 25, 99 11:27:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 311 > The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was > ever an angel; > Dave Washburn > http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur > A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't. Oh, are you aware of any textual critical issues surrounding Galatians 4:14 which would make this doubtfull? Sincerely, Larry Kruper From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 25 20:51:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA14674; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:51:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:47:39 +0800 Message-Id: <199903252147.FAA06772@apollo.cvpc.edu.ph> X-Sender: fcg@mail.cvpc.edu.ph (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Frank Glenn Subject: Re: tc-list Philippians 2:6 and 1:1 translations Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1480 At 11:27 AM 3/25/99 -0700, Dave wrote: >[snip] >> What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" >> translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally >> one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, >> and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion >> brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to >> restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the >> Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the >> rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. > >*yawn* Not only is this off-topic for TC-list, but it's nothing more >than the same tired old stuff that Arians have been preaching for >centuries. The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was >ever an angel; as for the meaning of harpagmos, see Moulton- >Milligan and BAG, to name just a couple. TDNT 1:473-474 gives a >full exposition of the 3 possible meanings of the word and treats all >of them grammatically, concluding that the meaning is "He did not >regard equality with God as a gain, either in the sense of >something not to be let slip, or in the sense of something not to be >left unutilised." IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has >been answered many, many, many times and it's high time it was >put to bed for good. Before you put the light out, reread the NT and many of the Church Fathers. Frank From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Mar 25 21:23:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA14796; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:23:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199903260223.VAA14791@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:26:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Philippians 2:6 and 1:1 translations Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199903252147.FAA06772@apollo.cvpc.edu.ph> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1730 > At 11:27 AM 3/25/99 -0700, Dave wrote: > >[snip] > >> What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" > >> translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally > >> one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, > >> and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion > >> brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to > >> restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the > >> Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the > >> rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. > > > >*yawn* Not only is this off-topic for TC-list, but it's nothing more > >than the same tired old stuff that Arians have been preaching for > >centuries. The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was > >ever an angel; as for the meaning of harpagmos, see Moulton- > >Milligan and BAG, to name just a couple. TDNT 1:473-474 gives a > >full exposition of the 3 possible meanings of the word and treats all > >of them grammatically, concluding that the meaning is "He did not > >regard equality with God as a gain, either in the sense of > >something not to be let slip, or in the sense of something not to be > >left unutilised." IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has > >been answered many, many, many times and it's high time it was > >put to bed for good. > > Before you put the light out, reread the NT and many of the Church Fathers. > Frank > I have. Look at the creeds and see what they concluded. Again, this has nothing to do with TC. Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 09:49:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17393; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:49:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:49:55 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Adair" To: "'tc-list'" Subject: Re: tc-list LXX Psa 13.3 par. Rom 3.13-18 In-Reply-To: <45D54DA9E035D21199F200A0C9E047A2B3A4@oak_pdc.oakhill.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 699 On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Peter Head wrote: > This verse in the LXX has a long section in parallel with Romans 3.13-18 > (itself a catena of citations from Ps 5.10; 139.4; 10.7 (LXX9.28); Isa > 59.7f; Ps 35.2). It seems to be present in all available LXX > manuscripts. I don't have immediate access to the Goettingen edition, but Rahlfs puts the addition in brackets and indicates that it is missing from ms A. The note in BHS gives the faulty impression that these additional lines are present in all LXX mss. ****************************************************** James R. Adair, Jr. Director, ATLA Center for Electronic Texts in Religion ****************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 09:56:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17434; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:56:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:56:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199903261456.JAA17429@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:08:08 -0500 From: Fred P Miller To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list h*elp please Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1312 Friends I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the right track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumran Great Isaiah Scroll. Later editors of the scroll used dots to above and below words (described in my introductory page here: http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-intr.htm#dots) that did not belong in the text and then the proper word (usually the NAME -- YHWH) was written by an editor between the lines. Recently I magnified what I thought were dots on scroll page 35 (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the dots took shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes which defies the imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 or so. I am including two magnifications of the the section of the page. The actual page and size of what appears to be dots can be seen on scroll page 35 (address above) . Does anyone have an explanation for these notes and is there anything written to describe what they are and what they indicate? See the magnifications below. And thank you for your patience and your help. Fred P Miller [Part 2, Image/JPEG 23KB] [Unable to print this part] [Part 3, Image/JPEG 7.2KB] [Unable to print this part] From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 10:46:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA17872; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:46:44 -0500 Message-ID: <003086DDAD30D211842F00062B0006E10119416B@esusa.esusa.org> From: Curt Niccum To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list h*elp please Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:50:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1686 Those dots belong to the letters of the tetragrammaton which have been almost completely abraded. Curt > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred P Miller [SMTP:fmoeller@ao.net] > Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 8:57 AM > To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > Subject: tc-list h*elp please > > Friends > > I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the > right > track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumran > Great > Isaiah Scroll. Later editors of the scroll used dots to above and below > words > (described in my introductory page here: > http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-intr.htm#dots) > that did not belong in the text and then the proper word (usually the NAME > -- > YHWH) was written by an editor between the lines. Recently I magnified > what I > thought were dots on scroll page 35 > (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) > where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the dots > took > shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes which defies the > imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 or so. > > I am including two magnifications of the the section of the page. The > actual > page and size of what appears to be dots can be seen on scroll page 35 > (address > above) . Does anyone have an explanation for these notes and is there > anything > written to describe what they are and what they indicate? See the > magnifications > below. And thank you for your patience and your help. > > Fred P Miller > > > [Part 2, Image/JPEG 23KB] > [Unable to print this part] > > > [Part 3, Image/JPEG 7.2KB] > [Unable to print this part] > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 11:03:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17979; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:03:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:08:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903261608.LAA03410@smtp3.mindspring.com> From: Fred P Miller Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please X-Spanska: Yes Apparently-To: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 0 From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 11:03:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17991; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:03:29 -0500 Message-ID: <36FBB082.C7AED20B@ao.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:06:26 -0500 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please References: <199903261456.JAA17429@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1570 dear erkki I found a program ska.dll what is it and what do i do with it. Should I reinstall windows Fred P Miller wrote: > Friends > > I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the right > track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumran Great > Isaiah Scroll. Later editors of the scroll used dots to above and below words > (described in my introductory page here: > http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-intr.htm#dots) > that did not belong in the text and then the proper word (usually the NAME -- > YHWH) was written by an editor between the lines. Recently I magnified what I > thought were dots on scroll page 35 > (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) > where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the dots took > shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes which defies the > imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 or so. > > I am including two magnifications of the the section of the page. The actual > page and size of what appears to be dots can be seen on scroll page 35 (address > above) . Does anyone have an explanation for these notes and is there anything > written to describe what they are and what they indicate? See the magnifications > below. And thank you for your patience and your help. > > Fred P Miller > > [Part 2, Image/JPEG 23KB] > [Unable to print this part] > > [Part 3, Image/JPEG 7.2KB] > [Unable to print this part] -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 11:10:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA18066; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:10:09 -0500 Message-ID: <36FBB20D.582077DA@ao.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:13:02 -0500 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu, curt.niccum@oc.edu Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please References: <199903261456.JAA17429@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1895 Curt Niccum Thanks for your reply which is appreciated. The letters ought to refer to the NAME but they do not look like the name in Hebrew or Aramaic. What language are they written in? The letters do not remotely resemble the YHWH in Hebrew and there and there seem to be 5 characters. If you have a reference to any book in which they are described i would appreciate it. Thanks for your reply. Fred P Miller Fred P Miller wrote: > Friends > > I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the right > track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumran Great > Isaiah Scroll. Later editors of the scroll used dots to above and below words > (described in my introductory page here: > http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-intr.htm#dots) > that did not belong in the text and then the proper word (usually the NAME -- > YHWH) was written by an editor between the lines. Recently I magnified what I > thought were dots on scroll page 35 > (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) > where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the dots took > shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes which defies the > imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 or so. > > I am including two magnifications of the the section of the page. The actual > page and size of what appears to be dots can be seen on scroll page 35 (address > above) . Does anyone have an explanation for these notes and is there anything > written to describe what they are and what they indicate? See the magnifications > below. And thank you for your patience and your help. > > Fred P Miller > > [Part 2, Image/JPEG 23KB] > [Unable to print this part] > > [Part 3, Image/JPEG 7.2KB] > [Unable to print this part] -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 12:31:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA18530; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:31:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:36:34 -0500 (EST) From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Phil 2:6 and 1:1 (textual integrity of Phil) In-Reply-To: <199903251825.NAA10934@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 8779 On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Dave Washburn wrote: [Yuri:] > > What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" > > translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally > > one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, > > and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion > > brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to > > restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the > > Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the > > rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. > > *yawn* Not only is this off-topic for TC-list, but it's nothing more > than the same tired old stuff that Arians have been preaching for > centuries. Dave, This subject is not really off-topic for TC-list. The reason why you thought so is because you seem to have misunderstood my post to some extent. My second question re Phil 1:1 should have given you the idea, but you snipped it, unfortunately. What all this was leading towards, as my question re Phil 1:1 should have indicated, was the question of interpolations in Philippians. In other words, textual integrity of Philippians. "Bishops and deacons" in Phil 1:1 seem like an obvious late interpolation. And the reason why I was asking about the hymn to Christ in Phil is because it also seems like it was not written by Paul. Therefore, questions arise about the history, authorship, and the dating of this text. (Actually, I happen to think that the hymn dates from the time after Paul's lifetime). > The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was ever an angel; Debatable. > as for the meaning of harpagmos, see Moulton- Milligan and BAG, to > name just a couple. Thanks for helping me with this. I've been trying to understand the meaning of this passage, along with great many other students of the NT. This is a very difficult passage indeed (and it generated huge amounts of literature, as you've pointed out). This is why the correct translation is important. And once this is clarified, the focus should logically move further to the history of this text. Now, I certainly would not like to post off-topic material to tc-list. If after this post some people still think this subject is irrelevant, I will certainly stop, and will try to move the discussion elsewhere. Because I consider myself a good cyber-citizen. > IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has been answered many, many, > many times and it's high time it was put to bed for good. I find it very interesting that you should have brought up Arianism. Do you think KJV was Arian-influenced? Arianist controversy was supposed to be the controversy about the nature of the relationship of Father to Son. I wasn't really aware of the Arian angle on this passage before. So I'm thankful to you for pointing me in that direction. Now, after some more reading, I confess that my position on this passage has changed already. I would like to take back and modify some of the things I said before. This is the translation that I prefer now (of course something similar has been proposed before by other scholars), "Who, while in the form of God, did not esteem it as his lawful prize to become equal to God." Where Arianism comes in this debate, is the question of whether the pre-existent Son was equal to the Father, or he was merely on the similar heavenly level with the Father, while not being equal. Here's the NIV translation again (that is similar to most "modern" translations). "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." This sure seems like the equality of Father and Son is assumed in this translation. But I don't think the Greek really supports this, since in the Greek text "being in the form of God", and "being equal to God" do not seem to be treated as identical concepts. So what if my reading seems like an Arian reading? Why can't the Arians be right about some things sometimes? What if their theology was actually more reflective of earliest Christianity in some respects? Is this totally impossible in your view? The next and related question to consider is the vexing question of "harpagmos". Here's some useful information I've found on the Web, [quote] The word "harpagmos" stems from the word "harpazo". According to Zodhiates' "The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary, New Testament" the word differs from "klepto" (to steal) in that it is an open act of theft, or robbery. It is admitted that it is not exclusively used thus, but also in a more general sense of forcible seizure. In Chadwick's "Lexicographica Graeca" the word is said to mean [seizure] "executed rapidly", "saisir l'instant", "to be caught" or "got by chance". Hickie's "Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament" has "to seize", "take by force" & "snatch away" for "harpazo", but for the word in question (harpagmos) it has "a thing to be seized; an accidental acquisition". http://www.bcca.org/srb/archive/980101-980228/0060.html [end quote] Also it is relevant to consider that, while "harpagmos" is found only once in the Bible, there is a very similar word, "harpagma", that is quite common in the Septuagint. This word is always found in the sense of 'booty' or 'prize'. And this is how I prefer to interpret "harpagmos". Also, Vulgate translates "harpagmon" as "rapinam", a word which can mean not only the act of plundering or robbery but also the concrete noun 'plunder' or 'booty'. So this is the crux of our problem, it seems. What to do with this word, and how to interpret it? I find these comments by Dr. Rodney J. Decker quite valid, [quote] The word group of which [hARPAGMOS] is a part seems to convey ideas that are totally out of character with the context of Phil. 2: robbery, plunder, greediness, swindler, rape, booty, stolen, to seize hastily, to be a thief, etc. It is the attempt to make these meanings suitable in a Christological reference that has engendered much of the confusion over the text. [end quote] So how do we interpret this unusual word? It implies certain amount of violence, and seems to allude to some past conflict in the heavenly spheres. This is important, it seems to me. To continue with Dr. Decker's comments, [quote] Two primary explanations have been offered for this word. 1) Res rapta, equality with God was his by right and by nature and was not a theft, i.e., he did not steal his position unjustly. This takes hARPAGMOS in an active sense to mean "robbery, snatching." 2) Res rapienda, equality with God was not viewed by Christ as something to be seized; i.e., he was not equal with God and did not make any "snatching effort" to achieve that position. (Cf. NEB, "he did not think to snatch at equality with God.") This is a passive sense, "something to be seized." http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/rd_ken.htm [end quote] So here I prefer the solution #2. This is how I interpret this text. But of the seven translations available at The Bible Gateway http://www.gospelcom.net/bible only the Darby translation reflects this point of view. Any way you consider this problem, pre-existence of Christ is clearly implied in this passage. The question is, What was the exact status of the pre-existent Christ as reflected in our hymn? You continued in your post: > TDNT 1:473-474 gives a full exposition of the 3 possible meanings of > the word and treats all of them grammatically, concluding that the > meaning is "He did not regard equality with God as a gain, either in > the sense of something not to be let slip, or in the sense of > something not to be left unutilised." So you're offering yet another translation that assumes that in his pre-existence Christ was equal to God. I doubt that this is a valid interpretation for the reasons already outlined. Generally speaking, I don't think this hymn dates to the lifetime of Paul, primarily because of the rather high Christology implied in it, and because of its more developed gnosis. In my view, the Historical Paul followed low (quasi-Ebionite) Christology. Pre-existence does generally seem like a rather late theological concept. But the Christology of the hymn, while rather high, is still not quite as high as almost all modern translations would like it to make, in my view. Regards, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Mar 26 19:37:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA21192; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:37:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199903270037.TAA21187@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:41:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Phil 2:6 and 1:1 (textual integrity of Phil) Priority: normal References: <199903251825.NAA10934@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3508 Yuri wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Dave Washburn wrote: > > [Yuri:] > > > What the original Greek (and KJV and Darby) conveys, and "modern" > > > translations fail to convey, is the idea that, while Christ was originally > > > one of the angels who were on par with God, he did not do like they did, > > > and remained faithful to God. Then, after the rebellious angels' rebellion > > > brought great discord into the world, Christ was sent on a mission to > > > restore the world to its original shape, and ended up suffering on the > > > Cross. And thus he helped to correct all the trouble started by the > > > rebellious angels. Total defeat for Satan will be the end result. > > > > *yawn* Not only is this off-topic for TC-list, but it's nothing more > > than the same tired old stuff that Arians have been preaching for > > centuries. > > Dave, > > This subject is not really off-topic for TC-list. The reason why you > thought so is because you seem to have misunderstood my post to some > extent. > > My second question re Phil 1:1 should have given you the idea, but you > snipped it, unfortunately. > > What all this was leading towards, as my question re Phil 1:1 should have > indicated, was the question of interpolations in Philippians. In other > words, textual integrity of Philippians. I don't understand how a comment on the meaning of harpagmos in Phil 2:6 has anything to do with the textual integrity of Phil 1:1. > "Bishops and deacons" in Phil 1:1 seem like an obvious late interpolation. > And the reason why I was asking about the hymn to Christ in Phil is > because it also seems like it was not written by Paul. Therefore, > questions arise about the history, authorship, and the dating of this > text. (Actually, I happen to think that the hymn dates from the time after > Paul's lifetime). That's form criticism, not textual criticism. So it's still off-topic. > > The NT NOWHERE gives any indication that Christ was ever an angel; > > Debatable. > > > as for the meaning of harpagmos, see Moulton- Milligan and BAG, to > > name just a couple. > > Thanks for helping me with this. > > I've been trying to understand the meaning of this passage, along with > great many other students of the NT. This is a very difficult passage > indeed (and it generated huge amounts of literature, as you've pointed > out). This is why the correct translation is important. And once this is > clarified, the focus should logically move further to the history of this > text. > > Now, I certainly would not like to post off-topic material to tc-list. > If after this post some people still think this subject is irrelevant, I > will certainly stop, and will try to move the discussion elsewhere. > Because I consider myself a good cyber-citizen. > > > IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has been answered many, many, > > many times and it's high time it was put to bed for good. > > I find it very interesting that you should have brought up Arianism. Do > you think KJV was Arian-influenced? One of the most annoying things in the world is when someone doesn't actually read what a person writes, but tries to answer it anyway. I didn't say anything in the KJV was Arian, I said your post about Christ as an angel was Arian-influenced. If you're going to try and respond to me, PLEASE read what I actually write. [snip again - still off-topic] Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 01:57:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA21664; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:57:32 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:54:57 +0800 Message-Id: <199903270254.KAA15729@apollo.cvpc.edu.ph> X-Sender: fcg@mail.cvpc.edu.ph X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Frank Glenn Subject: tc-list High Christology and Colossians Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1585 At 12:36 PM 3/26/99 -0500, Yuri wrote (anent Philippians): (snip) > TDNT 1:473-474 gives a full exposition of the 3 possible meanings of >> the word and treats all of them grammatically, concluding that the >> meaning is "He did not regard equality with God as a gain, either in >> the sense of something not to be let slip, or in the sense of >> something not to be left unutilised." > >So you're offering yet another translation that assumes that in his >pre-existence Christ was equal to God. I doubt that this is a valid >interpretation for the reasons already outlined. > >Generally speaking, I don't think this hymn dates to the lifetime of Paul, >primarily because of the rather high Christology implied in it, and >because of its more developed gnosis. In my view, the Historical Paul >followed low (quasi-Ebionite) Christology. Pre-existence does generally >seem like a rather late theological concept. > >But the Christology of the hymn, while rather high, is still not quite as >high as almost all modern translations would like it to make, in my view. Why would one assume that a Christology has to move from "low" to "high" as the "normal" expectation? Suppose that Colossians, rather than being either non-pauline or very late, is Paul's earliest extant letter reflecting a sort of Johannine Christology learned in Syria before his association with Barnabas and Antioch. From thence Paul gradually moved (beginning with Thessalonians and progressing to Romans) to the "quasi-Ebionite" stance which I agree reflects the bulk of his authentic writings. Frank From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 15:15:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA23757; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:15:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:19:31 -0500 From: "Harold P. Scanlin" Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199903271519_MC2-6FB2-A245@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2947 Curt Niccum wrote, in response to Fred Miller: = > Thanks for your reply which is appreciated. The letters ought to refer= to the NAME > but they do not look like the name in Hebrew or Aramaic. > What language are they written in? The letters do not remotely resembl= e the YHWH > in Hebrew and there and there seem to be 5 characters. If you have a reference to > any book in which they are described i would appreciate it. = Any detailed study of the palaeography of the DSS should still begin with= the classic study of Malachi Martin (Yes, THE Malachi Martin that now writes popular books on sometimes controversial church matters), _The Scribal Character of the Dead Sea Scrolls_ [only treats Cave 1] (Louvain,= 1958), 2 volumes, numbered consecutively. In the last five years or so Emanuel Tov has written a number of articles on the physical characteristics of the Qumran manuscripts. I don' t have the full bibliography at hand, but you might want to start with "Correction Procedures in the Texts from the Judean Desert," pp. 232-263. In _The Provo International Conference on the Dead Sea Scrolls_, SDTJ, 30, (EJ Brill, 1999). > Fred P Miller > > I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the= right > > track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumr= an Great > > Isaiah Scroll. = > > Recently I magnified what I > > thought were dots on scroll page 35 > > (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) > > where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the dots took > > shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes Martin suggests that the five dots are the remnants of an erased tetragrammaton, inserted by scribe B (Martin's designation) and later partially erased by scribe C. Compare scribe B's two line insertion in a= fine hand in column 28. (Martin, pp. 548-550) Martin's proposal is reasonable, and cited by Tov in the Provo volume, if= not verifiable in the existing photos, even with digital enhancement. = Martin, however, offers no explanation why scribe C decided to erase a we= ll attested reading or why it was only partially erased. I checked the Kodansha plates, which is slightly better here but does show some darkeni= ng in this area. I understand that a new edition of the scroll, with new plates is in preparation (for the DJD series?). This may help to decide the case. >> which defies the > > imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 o= r so. Not so hard to believe, even if it is not partially erased. The admitted= ly much later Hebrew micrography in medieval manuscripts are models of precision, probably using writing instruments not too much different than= those used at the turn of the era. In another medium, there is also some= extremely small cuneiform writing. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 16:03:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA23929; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:03:00 -0500 Message-ID: <36FD483C.3DDD8476@ao.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:06:04 -0500 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list help please References: <199903271519_MC2-6FB2-A245@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4702 Harold P. Scanlin wrote: you wrote to suggest what the dots may be. But you seem to offer differing opinions of the nature of the "dots" Are there two thoughts presented here by your comments? That is 1. that the dots are remnants of partially erased letters of the NAME. Or 2. that the microscopically small letters are very precise but reflect a technology mastered earlier and illlustrated later in the middle ages, It does not seem to me that it can be both. Either one or the other perhaps but not both. I am of the opinion that the strokes have a precise form not resembling Hebrew or Aramaic unless there are primitive alphabet scripts that I am not aware of that would make the final two enscriptions resemble (if Hebrew) what looks like a heth or tau upside down and the next to last marking resembles an oblique X leaning to the left with elongated legs extending to the right, If this is the next to last letter in the partially erased tetragrammaton it should be waw and it does not seem to bear any resemblance to waw. As for erasures there do not seem to be any places where residual strokes leave any evidence of having been abraided while however there is some "bleeding" between the letters which would be natural with such a small notation and would counter the idea of erasures since the bleeding has not been abraided at all.. Thank you for the Bibliography which I hope will prove helpful (if I can find the books), I have all of Martin's popular books predicting the imminent end of the Papal System but none of his "tc" work. Harold P. Scanlin wrote: > Curt Niccum wrote, in response to Fred Miller: > > > Thanks for your reply which is appreciated. The letters ought to refer > to the NAME > > but they do not look like the name in Hebrew or Aramaic. > > What language are they written in? The letters do not remotely resemble > the YHWH > > in Hebrew and there and there seem to be 5 characters. If you have a > reference to > > any book in which they are described i would appreciate it. > > Any detailed study of the palaeography of the DSS should still begin with > the classic study of Malachi Martin (Yes, THE Malachi Martin that now > writes popular books on sometimes controversial church matters), _The > Scribal Character of the Dead Sea Scrolls_ [only treats Cave 1] (Louvain, > 1958), 2 volumes, numbered consecutively. In the last five years or so > Emanuel Tov has written a number of articles on the physical > characteristics of the Qumran manuscripts. I don' t have the full > bibliography at hand, but you might want to start with "Correction > Procedures in the Texts from the Judean Desert," pp. 232-263. In _The > Provo International Conference on the Dead Sea Scrolls_, SDTJ, 30, (EJ > Brill, 1999). > > > Fred P Miller > > > I am new to this list so please be patient with me if I am not on the > right > > > track but I would like some help with an unusual notation in the Qumran > Great > > > Isaiah Scroll. > > > Recently I magnified what I > > > thought were dots on scroll page 35 > > > (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-35.htm#dots) > > > where Q omits the NAME that is found in the received text. And the > dots took > > > shape that is a miniturized notation with definite shapes > > Martin suggests that the five dots are the remnants of an erased > tetragrammaton, inserted by scribe B (Martin's designation) and later > partially erased by scribe C. Compare scribe B's two line insertion in a > fine hand in column 28. (Martin, pp. 548-550) > > Martin's proposal is reasonable, and cited by Tov in the Provo volume, if > not verifiable in the existing photos, even with digital enhancement. > Martin, however, offers no explanation why scribe C decided to erase a well > attested reading or why it was only partially erased. I checked the > Kodansha plates, which is slightly better here but does show some darkening > in this area. I understand that a new edition of the scroll, with new > plates is in preparation (for the DJD series?). This may help to decide > the case. > > >> which defies the > > > imagination as to how they cound have been made so small in BCE 100 or > so. > > Not so hard to believe, even if it is not partially erased. The admittedly > much later Hebrew micrography in medieval manuscripts are models of > precision, probably using writing instruments not too much different than > those used at the turn of the era. In another medium, there is also some > extremely small cuneiform writing. > > Harold P. Scanlin > United Bible Societies > 1865 Broadway > New York, NY 10023 > scanlin@compuserve.com -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 16:19:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA23989; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:19:40 -0500 Message-ID: <36FD4C25.6263CA0@ao.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:22:45 -0500 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list help please References: <199903271519_MC2-6FB2-A245@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 759 Harold P. Scanlin wrote: Martin suggests that the five dots are the remnants of an erased tetragrammaton, inserted by scribe B (Martin's designation) and later partially erased by scribe C. Compare scribe B's two line insertion in a fine hand in column 28. the small hand of the scribe on scroll pag 28 just after line 18 is not microscopic and can be read easily. There was a mistake corrected (probably by the original scribe) and there is a mistake in the correction that is corrected by a later editor. This is described here http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-28.htm and it can be seen that the "small hand" is still easily discernable Hebrew which the "dots" on page 35 are not.. I don't kow what they are but have an interest in knowing. F Miller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 17:18:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24155; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:18:20 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:22:51 -0500 From: "Harold P. Scanlin" Subject: Re: tc-list help please To: "INTERNET:tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu" Message-ID: <199903271722_MC2-6F9F-C3B@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1790 Fred Miller asked, > Are there two thoughts presented here by your comments? That is 1. tha= t the > dots are remnants of partially erased letters of the NAME. Or 2. that the > microscopically small letters are very precise but reflect a technology= > mastered earlier and illustrated later in the middle ages, It does not= seem > to me that it can be both. You are right, both theories can't be right. I only intended to say that= I favor explanation 1, but even if they are micrography (not necessarily microscopically small) that is probably technologically possible. = > I am > of the opinion that the strokes have a precise form not resembling Hebr= ew or > Aramaic unless there are primitive alphabet scripts that I am not aware= of that > would make the final two enscriptions resemble (if Hebrew) what looks like a > heth or tau upside down and the next to last marking resembles an oblique X > leaning to the left with elongated legs extending to the right, If thi= s is the > next to last letter in the partially erased tetragrammaton it should be= waw and > it does not seem to bear any resemblance to waw. As for erasures there= do not > seem to be any places where residual strokes leave any evidence of havi= ng been > abraided while however there is some "bleeding" between the letters whi= ch would > be natural with such a small notation and would counter the idea of erasures > since the bleeding has not been abraided at all.. This is all possible, but the condition of the published plates prevents definitive conclusions. Martin offers at least a plausible case for remnants of the required letters, in Qumran orthography, for the tetragrammaton. Harold P. Scanlin United Bible Societies 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 scanlin@compuserve.com From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sat Mar 27 21:49:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA24703; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:49:09 -0500 Message-ID: <36FD9914.443E7DD0@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:51:00 -0600 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TC-List Subject: tc-list a new E-List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 643 I am very pleased to announce that Corpus Paulinum, a moderated academic e-list dedicated to the scholarly discussion and evaluation of critical questions surrounding the life, influence, teaching, theology, and the writings of the Apostle Paul, is now up and running and open for subscription and posting. Details regarding the List's focus, protocols, and methods for subscribing can now be found at http://metalab.unc.edu/corpus-paul/ the Corpus Paulinum Home Page. I hope you will join the C-P list. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 28 14:18:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26896; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:18:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:24:27 -0500 (EST) From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Phil 2:6 and 1:1 (textual integrity of Phil) In-Reply-To: <199903270037.TAA21187@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3001 On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Dave Washburn wrote: > Yuri wrote: > > This subject is not really off-topic for TC-list. The reason why you > > thought so is because you seem to have misunderstood my post to some > > extent. > > > > My second question re Phil 1:1 should have given you the idea, but you > > snipped it, unfortunately. > > > > What all this was leading towards, as my question re Phil 1:1 should have > > indicated, was the question of interpolations in Philippians. In other > > words, textual integrity of Philippians. > > I don't understand how a comment on the meaning of harpagmos in > Phil 2:6 has anything to do with the textual integrity of Phil 1:1. Clarifying the meaning of harpagmos may help to understand who wrote this hymn and when. > > "Bishops and deacons" in Phil 1:1 seem like an obvious late interpolation. > > And the reason why I was asking about the hymn to Christ in Phil is > > because it also seems like it was not written by Paul. Therefore, > > questions arise about the history, authorship, and the dating of this > > text. (Actually, I happen to think that the hymn dates from the time after > > Paul's lifetime). > > That's form criticism, not textual criticism. So it's still off-topic. Are you saying that asking about textual integrity of Phil is not textual criticism? Identifying a possible interpolation in Phil 1:1 is irrelevant to textual criticism? Let me ask you this, Dave. Do you feel uncomfortable when questions about interpolations in Pauline epistles are raised? If so, then you're probably not alone. But I'm afraid, such questions need to be asked. [Dave:] > > > IOW, the Arian nonsense expounded above has been answered many, many, > > > many times and it's high time it was put to bed for good. [Yuri:] > > I find it very interesting that you should have brought up Arianism. Do > > you think KJV was Arian-influenced? > One of the most annoying things in the world is when someone doesn't > actually read what a person writes, but tries to answer it anyway. I > didn't say anything in the KJV was Arian, I said your post about > Christ as an angel was Arian-influenced. If you're going to try and > respond to me, PLEASE read what I actually write. So this was the meaning of your complaint then? In such a case, I would like to assure you that I meant no Arian subversion whatsoever by the use of this word. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you replace "angel" in my original post with "spiritual being", the meaning of my post would not be affected in any way. (I do hope that you have no objections to Christ being described as a spiritual being.) Regards, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 28 14:49:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26982; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:49:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199903270037.TAA21187@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:56:00 -0600 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Phil 2:6 and 1:1 (textual integrity of Phil) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1728 On 3/28/99, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote, in part: >Let me ask you this, Dave. Do you feel uncomfortable when questions about >interpolations in Pauline epistles are raised? If so, then you're probably >not alone. But I'm afraid, such questions need to be asked. Theological questions are not the point. Not on this list. In fact, the matter ought not to be discussed, because they interfere with our ability to work together. As best I can tell, you are proposing a conjectural emendation to Phil. 1:1. Now conjectural emendations are a legitimate topic for discussion on this list, as some critics allow them. However, I think it safe to say that, in New Testament criticism, *no* scholar will allow conjectural emendation unless the passage involves a crux -- some sort of difficulty in understanding. You need to establish the existence of that crux. And if you need this much argument to establish its existence, that proves on its very face that you have *not* established it. So your conjectural emendation is not allowed. You may still argue that the passage has been edited. But it was edited in a primitive way (presumably before the Pauline corpus was assembled). This is not the field of textual criticism; it is indeed a matter for form criticism or some other discipline. Hence I agree with the call for taking the matter off-list. And note that I express no theological opinions in so saying. :-) -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 28 18:38:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA27673; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:38:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:56:15 -0500 From: "E. Bruce Brooks" Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <0F9B00JNXWJA7N@pobox1.oit.umass.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 439 Fred, I just received a "tc-list help please" message addressed to me personally, but with an absolutely blank message area. I doubt that I can be of any help in a serious TC question (unless it were in Chinese, and not assuredly even then), but I will give it a try if the message was actually for me, and if it could be resent complete with its content. Best wishes in either case, Bruce E Bruce Brooks University of Massachusetts From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Sun Mar 28 18:59:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA27750; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:59:37 -0500 Message-ID: <36FEC321.2713B237@ao.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:02:41 -0500 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please References: <0F9B00JNXWJA7N@pobox1.oit.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 818 I was infected wit a happy 99 virus and sent mail to people who had received an email message from me, Check your files to see if you have any files with a ska extention. If not don't worry. If so write again E. Bruce Brooks wrote: > Fred, > I just received a "tc-list help please" message addressed to me > personally, but with an absolutely blank message area. > I doubt that I can be of any help in a serious TC question (unless it were > in Chinese, and not assuredly even then), but I will give it a try if the > message was actually for me, and if it could be resent complete with its > content. > Best wishes in either case, > Bruce > > E Bruce Brooks > University of Massachusetts -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 29 02:22:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA28711; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 02:22:36 -0500 From: "Sipila Seppo" Organization: Teologinen tiedekunta To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:26:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. Subject: Re: tc-list LXX Psa 13.3 par. Rom 3.13-18 Priority: normal References: <45D54DA9E035D21199F200A0C9E047A2B3A4@oak_pdc.oakhill.ac.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01d) Message-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by kantti.Helsinki.FI id KAA04015 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1200 On 26 Mar 99, at 9:49, James R. Adair wrote: > I don't have immediate access to the Goettingen edition, but Rahlfs put= s > the addition in brackets and indicates that it is missing from ms A. T= he > note in BHS gives the faulty impression that these additional lines are > present in all LXX mss.=20 In his Psalmi cum Odis Rahlfs says that the section is missing from the=20 Lucianic text (including Theodoret's commentary on Psalms =3D L') and A'=20 (=3D A 1219 55 + some fragments). The Lucianic text and the group A=B4 ar= e=20 closely related, however (see Psalmi cum Odis Prologomena =A7 8.1).=20 Additionally, the Psalt. Gall. (acc. to ms. Vat.Reg. 11) marks the passag= e=20 with an obelos. Rahlfs also add the following comment: ex Rom 3.13-18,=20 ubi Paulus haec verba (=3D Ps 5.10, 139:4, 9.28, Is 59.7-8, Ps 35.2) cum=20 Ps 13.3 inuxit, cf. proleg. =A7 4.4 et S-St. 2, p. 42. 229. I.e. Rahlfs thinks that the passage is a christian addition borrowed from= =20 Romans and it therefore did not belong to the OG of Psalms. Hope this helps, Seppo --- Mr Seppo Sipila Department of Biblical Studies University of Helsinki seppo.sipila@helsinki.fi http://www.helsinki.fi/~sesipila/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Mar 29 09:58:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA00941; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:58:49 -0500 Message-ID: <018E51C0313CD2119D5300062B001AE1BE5A57@doaisd02001> From: "Bauer, Marc" To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list h*elp please Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:03:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1476 TC-Listers et TC-Lurkers: Greetings from Helena, MT. I checked my drives with these commands. Dir ska.* /s/p and dir *.ska /s/p this is necessary as happy99.exe uses both forms. I have been infected with this worm in the past. Nothing showed up at this time. Have a Great Pesach and Holy Week and 2nd day of Eid al Adha. Marc Bauer Computer Operator I State of Montana, Computing Operations Bureau Home: 406.442.5971 Mailing: P. O. Box 65 Helena, MT 59624-0065 -----Original Message----- From: Fred P Miller [mailto:fmoeller@ao.net] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 5:03 PM To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list h*elp please I was infected wit a happy 99 virus and sent mail to people who had received an email message from me, Check your files to see if you have any files with a ska extention. If not don't worry. If so write again E. Bruce Brooks wrote: > Fred, > I just received a "tc-list help please" message addressed to me > personally, but with an absolutely blank message area. > I doubt that I can be of any help in a serious TC question (unless it were > in Chinese, and not assuredly even then), but I will give it a try if the > message was actually for me, and if it could be resent complete with its > content. > Best wishes in either case, > Bruce > > E Bruce Brooks > University of Massachusetts -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Mar 30 17:54:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA09307; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:54:29 -0500 Message-ID: <3701553A.2C3B@oneimage.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:50:34 -0700 From: "robert s. morse" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Zacharias Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 397 Gentlemen: Maybe someone could offer some help on this question: Zacharias, bishop of Besancon, in c. 1150 wrote a commentary on a Gospel harmony (Migne PL 186). He attributes the harmony itself to Ammonius of Alexandria. This would be extraordinary. Bruce Metzger regards the harmony as medieval. What are the possibilities that Zacharias was right about Ammonius? Thanks in advance. Bob Morse From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 31 03:38:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA11177; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:38:57 -0500 Message-ID: <45D54DA9E035D21199F200A0C9E047A2B3C5@oak_pdc.oakhill.ac.uk> From: Peter Head To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: RE: tc-list Zacharias Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:42:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 831 Try: J.R. Harris, "Some Notes on the Gospel-Harmony of Zacharias Chrysopolitanus" JBL 43(1924)32-45. ............................................ Peter M. Head Oak Hill College LONDON N14 4PS peterh@oakhill.ac.uk ............................................ -----Original Message----- From: robert s. morse [mailto:bmorse@oneimage.com] Sent: 30 March 1999 23:51 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Zacharias Gentlemen: Maybe someone could offer some help on this question: Zacharias, bishop of Besancon, in c. 1150 wrote a commentary on a Gospel harmony (Migne PL 186). He attributes the harmony itself to Ammonius of Alexandria. This would be extraordinary. Bruce Metzger regards the harmony as medieval. What are the possibilities that Zacharias was right about Ammonius? Thanks in advance. Bob Morse From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 31 05:57:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA12372; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:57:06 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:57:53 +0200 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu References: <45D54DA9E035D21199F200A0C9E047A2B3C5@oak_pdc.oakhill.ac.uk> Subject: Re: tc-list Zacharias X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Sender: 320003854441-0001@t-online.de From: U.B.Schmid@t-online.de (Dr. Ulrich Schmid) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1842 J.R. Harris has his merits, but the article mentioned is confusing and misleading. The best study today is still: O. Schmid, "Zacharias Chrysopolitanus und sein Kommentar zur Evangelienharmonie," Theologische Quartalschrift 68 (1886) 531-47 + ibid. 69 (1887) 231-275. Zacharias wasn't a bischop. In all likelyhood, he was head of the cleric (dome) school in Besancon, before he joined the monasic life. I'm not so sure, whether Zacharias really attributed the harmony to Ammonius. Robert, could you please give the referrence supporting this statement. Anyhow, had Zacharias really attributed the harmony to Ammonius, the chances that he was right are (next to) zero. We know that Zacharias used a copy of the famous Codex Fuldensis-Harmony. We even know to which part of the (later) recensensions his copy must have belonged to. Peter Head wrote: > Try: > J.R. Harris, "Some Notes on the Gospel-Harmony of Zacharias > Chrysopolitanus" JBL 43(1924)32-45. > > > > ............................................ > > Peter M. Head > Oak Hill College > LONDON N14 4PS > peterh@oakhill.ac.uk > ............................................ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: robert s. morse [mailto:bmorse@oneimage.com] > Sent: 30 March 1999 23:51 > To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu > Subject: tc-list Zacharias > > > Gentlemen: > > Maybe someone could offer some help on this question: Zacharias, bishop > of Besancon, in c. 1150 wrote a commentary on a Gospel harmony (Migne PL > 186). He attributes the harmony itself to Ammonius of Alexandria. This > would be extraordinary. Bruce Metzger regards the harmony as medieval. > What are the possibilities that Zacharias was right about Ammonius? > Thanks in advance. > > Bob Morse ------------------------------------------ Dr. Ulrich Schmid U.B.Schmid@t-online.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 31 14:30:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA15220; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:30:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:36:29 -0500 (EST) From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Phil 2:6 and 1:1 (textual integrity of Phil) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4176 Sorry for late reply, Robert. On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Robert B. Waltz wrote: > On 3/28/99, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote, in part: > > >Let me ask you this, Dave. Do you feel uncomfortable when questions about > >interpolations in Pauline epistles are raised? If so, then you're probably > >not alone. But I'm afraid, such questions need to be asked. > > Theological questions are not the point. Not on this list. In fact, > the matter ought not to be discussed, because they interfere with > our ability to work together. I agree completely. While my original post was not intended to be concerned with theological issues, I regret that it could have been interpreted as such. My fault. I should have expressed myself more clearly. > As best I can tell, you are proposing a conjectural emendation to > Phil. 1:1. Yes. > Now conjectural emendations are a legitimate topic for > discussion on this list, as some critics allow them. However, I > think it safe to say that, in New Testament criticism, *no* > scholar will allow conjectural emendation unless the passage > involves a crux -- some sort of difficulty in understanding. Perhaps so. > You need to establish the existence of that crux. But it has already been established for a long time. > And if you need this much argument to establish its existence, that > proves on its very face that you have *not* established it. You misunderstand. So far, I gave no argument to establish its existence. Nevertheless, many scholars argued that this is an interpolation. Here's this from the article on the Philippians in ANCHOR BD (1992) 5:319 "Critics frequently have viewed the reference to "bishops and deacons" (1:1), for insance, as an ecclesiastical anachronism and dismissed it as an ancient gloss (so, e.g., Riddle and Hutson 1946: 123; Schmithals 1971: 89-90 n. 14; Schenke and Fisher 1978: 126; Schenk 1984: 78-82, 334)." Also, according to the article, the earliest ms of Phil is P46, one of the three Chester Beatty papyri of the NT that dates from ca ad 200. It's only missing a few insignificant verses. Generally, the article says that, based only on mss, there are no significant textual problems with Phil. > So your conjectural emendation is not allowed. > > You may still argue that the passage has been edited. But it > was edited in a primitive way (presumably before the Pauline > corpus was assembled). I agree with you here. There's actuallly very little textual mss evidence for later interpolations in Pauline epistles. Existing mss of Pauline epistles are remarkably consistent, and show very little variation, compared even to the mss of the gospels. Two conclusions can be drawn from this. Either a) there are no later interpolations in Pauline epistles, or b) epistles were standartised at a very early stage by some centralized authority, and only "approved" versions were preserved for posterity. Myself, I incline to version b). While apparently textual criticism can do little to clarify this matter, still the question needs to be asked. Because there's more than enough evidence from other directions that the Pauline epistles had been labouriously edited, collated from various much shorter epistles, and heavily interpolated with later material. The scholar who has done more than anyone else to analyse this subject was Alfred Loisy, but unfortunately his work in this area is basically unknown the the current generation of scholars. > This is not the field of textual criticism; it is indeed a matter for > form criticism or some other discipline. Fine. But I think I was entitled to ask the question. Now it seems to be answered, so I'm happy. > Hence I agree with the call for taking the matter off-list. Fine with me. > And note that I express no theological opinions in so > saying. :-) Thank you. :-) Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky || Toronto http://www.trends.net/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Mar 31 14:32:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA15247; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:32:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3702775B.4670@oneimage.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:28:27 -0700 From: "robert s. morse" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list Subject: tc-list Responses on Zacharias Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 418 My hearty thanks to Peter Head and Ulrich Schmid for the helpful information, which I will check out. My authority for Zacharias attributing the harmony to Ammonius was the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1912, xv:743, not exactly up to date. There is also some reference to Ammonius in the introduction to the text in Migne (only scanned it). Fulgensis seems a lot more likely, which I have on order. Best regards, Bob M.