Subject: tc-list question concerning John 15:8

From: Mike Logsdon <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:16:30 -0600

List Members,
Just wondering what the list experts consider in regards to John 15:8. Is
the statement a two-fold statement that (1) By this My father was glorified
that you might bear much fruit and you might become my disciples OR two
separate realities that build upon each other in the hina clause (2) that
you might bear much fruit and [thus, then??] will become my disciples? I
have done some preliminary work on this variant and it seems that the
hardest reading is the future indicative which might also explain the
origin of the other. On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to
be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause. Most
translations favor reading two but the UBS has moved in favor of the first
from the 3d edition to the 4th edition. What I would like to hear from
someone who can do a search in the Greek text of the hina clauses is the
number of cases where John's hina clauses differ when there are more than
one verb tense associated after a hina. OR is it common for the two verbs
to differ and therefore have the second verb introduce another thought
building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated
as well. 

Thanks
Mike Logsdon
Southwestern Theological Seminary

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From: Carlton Winbery <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:19:41 +0400

Mike Logsdon wrote;
>building upon the hina. Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated
Mike,verses 7 & 8 are closely tied together both in meaning and in textual
history.  First the text. In the N-A27 you can note that in verse 7 several
of the witnesses (aleph, psi, 33, M) have the future AITHSESQE instead of
the the aorist AITHSASQE. Interestingly the same witnesses have the future
in verse 8, GENHSESQE instead of GENHSQE. Perhaps these witnesses saw a
connection between "asking" in faith and "becoming" a disciple. In verse 8
the N-A25 had the future in the text. However, there is not much difference
in meaning between the aorist imperative and the future used as an
imperative. I think scribes would have been more tempted to change aorist
impv. to future. so that the UBS4 is probably correct in both 7 & 8.

You say, >>On the other hand, the most natural reading seems to
be the aorist matching the tense of the first verb in the hina clause.<<
The first verb in the hINA clause in verse 8 is FERHTE, the present
subjunctive. It is combined in the clause with the aorist imperative
GENHSQE so in either case you have two different tenses in the hINA clause.

I wonder if we should not emphasize the causal idea in verses 7 & 8.  EN
TOUTW could be "for this reason" referring back to verse 7 and the hINA
clause could be a further elaboration on that causal relation "that you may
go on bearing much fruit and be (more of a gnomic) disciples to me."  This
would link the primary reason for what God did in Christ as enabling
disciples to bear fruit. I do think some of the scribes connected the
variant reading for the future in verse 7 with the variant reading in the
future in verse 8. In their mind this linked the "asking" with "becoming"
disciples.

Grace & peace,

Carlton L. Winbery
Fogleman Professor of Religion
Louisiana College
Pineville, LA 71359
[email-masked]
[email-masked]