From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 1 11:47:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA22036; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:47:42 -0500 From: "D.R. Edwards" To: Subject: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:00:45 -0500 Keywords: Bible Message-Id: <010801be7c61$2f023ba0$2ec5a380@guido2.bae.uky.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3702775B.4670@oneimage.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1037 Greetings to all - I still hope you have occasional amateur hours. In reading Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament," he discusses (p. 9, I believe) Thiede's views with regard to the Magdalen Fragments. According to Mack, one of the reasons Thiede dated the fragments so early is that they are written in uncial, which went out of style in the mid-first century CE. Mack counters with the statement that uncials could have been used as late as 85 CE, which is more-or-less the midpoint of dates that are commonly suggested for the composition of Matthew. My confusion stems from my idea that uncial script, properly speaking, consists of rounded letters and has some other orthographic characteristics that distinguish it from the earlier block script. I was also under the impression that this change to uncial script didn't occur until late in the 2d century CE. Needless to say, I'm hopelessly confused. I'd be very grateful if someone could help me to better understand Mack's comments in the context of the script. D. Edwards From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 1 16:50:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24379; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:50:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3703EAAA.82C06B67@historian.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:52:42 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? References: <010801be7c61$2f023ba0$2ec5a380@guido2.bae.uky.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1263 I was under the impression that Thiede stretched for the early date not becuse of the uncial script but a zeitschrift script that was used in Herodian times. Jack "D.R. Edwards" wrote: > Greetings to all - I still hope you have occasional amateur hours. > > In reading Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament," he discusses (p. 9, I > believe) Thiede's views with regard to the Magdalen Fragments. According to > Mack, one of the reasons Thiede dated the fragments so early is that they > are written in uncial, which went out of style in the mid-first century CE. > Mack counters with the statement that uncials could have been used as late > as 85 CE, which is more-or-less the midpoint of dates that are commonly > suggested for the composition of Matthew. > > My confusion stems from my idea that uncial script, properly speaking, > consists of rounded letters and has some other orthographic characteristics > that distinguish it from the earlier block script. I was also under the > impression that this change to uncial script didn't occur until late in the > 2d century CE. > > Needless to say, I'm hopelessly confused. I'd be very grateful if someone > could help me to better understand Mack's comments in the context of the > script. > > D. Edwards From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 2 04:01:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA26515; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:01:38 -0500 From: "Wieland Willker" To: "TC-List" Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 11:06:45 +0200 Message-Id: <000001be7ce8$21bacde0$67566686@chemie.unibremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 250 > not becuse of the uncial script but a zeitschrift script that was used > in Herodian times. you mean: Zierschrift (scrolled, ornate) ? Best wishes Wieland -------------------- willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 2 09:32:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA28020; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:32:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3704D62A.1E52E9C1@historian.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:37:30 -0600 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? References: <000001be7ce8$21bacde0$67566686@chemie.unibremen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 474 Wieland Willker wrote: > > > not becuse of the uncial script but a zeitschrift script that was used > > in Herodian times. > > you mean: Zierschrift (scrolled, ornate) ? Yupper. I was thinking zierstil and typed zietschrift (thinking of the journal)...must have posted before my second cup of coffee :) Jack -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 2 10:56:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA28438; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:56:14 -0500 Message-ID: <018E51C0313CD2119D5300062B001AE1BE5A63@doaisd02001.state.mt.us> From: "Bauer, Marc" To: "'tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu'" Subject: tc-list "Pitfalls of Typology" article help!!!! with reference to journal name, etc. Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:01:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1421 TC-Listers: A blest first day of the Feast Of Unleavened Bread, a blest second day of Pesah, and a Good Friday to such as may wish to have such greetings from me, a Montana Synod Lutheran. And Yom Tov and Shabbat Shalom, too. Was the "Pitfalls of Typology" article referred to on this list a while ago? The article was on different scripts from the Hebrew Bible, so I don't think so, but I'm not sure where else I could have gotten this reference. If you need journal name, so do I. I am seeking this reference for the Interlibrary Loan copy that I have so that I can properly credit this article. It was written, I believe, in or after 1985. The credit said parts of the article was read or given to the Aramaic Section (or some similar name) at the SBL Conference in Chicago in '84. I would give the article's author's name but the article is at home and I'm at the salt mine. Nose to the tube. So if this article was referred to on this list, could one of the more computer literate of y'all tell me how to refer to the archives? Jimmy? This request may be better answered off-list, I'm not sure. I tend to be a lurker, and am not a scholar to the level of many posters. Your indulgence is, of course, appreciated. In Service, Marc Bauer Computer Operator I Computer Operations Bureau State of Montana Hm: 406.442.5971 Snail Mail: Post Office Box 65, Helena, MT 59624-0065 Vielen Dank. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Mon Apr 5 18:36:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA15390; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:36:18 -0400 Message-ID: <37093B36.ACA62C61@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 17:37:42 -0500 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crosstalk CC: Biblical Greek , ioudaios-l , graphai , Synoptic-L , TC-List Subject: tc-list troubles at C-P References: <9904222955.80E5> <370913CE.35FA@genesisnetwork.net> <3709383D.3A9EC1A9@historian.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 461 Groups, Just a note to let you know -- especially if you've been trying to get subscribed or through to Corpus Paulinum -- that the server at the Host Site for C-P has been down since this morning. It is my hope that all will be rectified shortly, but unfortunately this is a situation over which I have no control. In great frustration, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 05:15:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA18143; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:15:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199904060920.KAA10369@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:15:55 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <010801be7c61$2f023ba0$2ec5a380@guido2.bae.uky.edu> References: <3702775B.4670@oneimage.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1446 In response to D. Edwards' query: I can't speak to Mack's book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on which he has established research credentials. It looks, however, like either Mack has given a confused account of Thiede's views, or you have mis-remembered Mack! 1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing. But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule" would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing style was made in the 2nd cent. 2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant scholarly journals. (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M. Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press, 1981). Larry Hurtado L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 09:03:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA18751; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:03:48 -0400 Message-ID: <370A0750.58C92868@historian.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:08:33 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? References: <3702775B.4670@oneimage.com> <199904060920.KAA10369@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1878 "Professor L.W. Hurtado" wrote: > 1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing. > But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule" > would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant > "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th > cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through > the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing > style was made in the 2nd cent. Although Uncial did come about as a calligraphic form of monumental Latin, isn't it true that the rounded angles of Greek majuscule were its inspiration? "Uncial" has been used as a term for book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper? I cannot find my copy right now, but what does Hatch say about this in his "Origin and Meaning of the term Uncial" in Classical Philology 30, 1935? > 2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular > Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular > shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a > dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically > inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant > scholarly journals. > (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M. > Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press, Dr. Metzger goes on to explain how the zierstil style continued into the 2nd and even the 3rd centuries. Surely Thiede knew this. Jack -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 09:35:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA18949; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:35:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:40:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904061340.IAA00016@homer.bethel.edu> X-Sender: holmic@mailhost.bethel.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Michael Holmes Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1492 At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked: > "Uncial" has been used as a term for >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper? The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a point of view expressed by D.C. Parker: "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT in Contemporary Research_, 22). So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general use by "majuscule." Mike Holmes From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 09:46:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA18996; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:46:57 -0400 Message-ID: <370A1170.E32483BF@historian.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:51:44 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? References: <199904061340.IAA00016@homer.bethel.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2062 Michael Holmes wrote: > > At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked: > > "Uncial" has been used as a term for > >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including > >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have > >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is > >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper? > > The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a > point of view expressed by D.C. Parker: > > "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The > word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase > about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a > consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular > kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek > Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London > Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of > Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate > the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as > opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule > Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT > in Contemporary Research_, 22). > > So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely > defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general > use by "majuscule." Parker's usage in "Codex Bezae" made me think that he was involved in this transition. Because of the common origin and calligraphic similarity between Greek and Latin hands, I have never seen a problem using "uncial" for either but if the majority of scholarship adopts this...hey, I'm flexible. :) Its going to take a long time though. Jack -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 10:03:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19180; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:03:31 -0400 From: "D.R. Edwards" To: Subject: RE: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:17:03 -0400 Keywords: Bible Message-Id: <000401be8038$24ed2dc0$2ec5a380@guido2.bae.uky.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199904060920.KAA10369@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2096 In response to D. Edwards' query: I can't speak to Mack's book, Who Wrote the NT?, except to note that neither textual criticism nor palaeography is a topic on which he has established research credentials. It looks, however, like either Mack has given a confused account of Thiede's views, or you have mis-remembered Mack! 1) "Uncial" is a term properly pertaining to a style of Latin writing. But NT text critics have persisted in using it, though "majuscule" would be the proper term to use, in contrast to the later ascendant "minuscule" or "cursive" handwriting of Greek mss from the late 8th cent CE. Majuscule/uncial writing was characteristic all through the earliest Christian centuries, and no shift away from this writing style was made in the 2nd cent. 2) Thiede's case has to do with the particular shape of particular Greek letters. It's not a matter of "uncial" but of the particular shape of particular "uncial" letters, which, he argues, indicates a dating in the lst cent. He has been shown to be methodologically inept in this argument by competent palaeographers in the relevant scholarly journals. (For an introduction to Greek mss and palaeography, see B. M. Metzger, _Manuscripts of the Greek Bible_ (Oxford Univ. press, 1981). Thanks for the response. I double-checked the relevant passage in Mack's book, so it may be that the first option (confused account) is more likely than the second. Things are considerably clearer now. Your two numbered paragraphs are consistent with what I've been able to put together on the topic, which is why I found it hard to follow Mack's argument. From what I've been able to learn on the topic, rounding of certain uncial letters appears to have begun in the late 2d century, possibly in Alexandria, possibly as a result of increased use of parchment; one of the reasons for the dating of the fragments was that they appeared to exhibit a transition from the "blocked" letters to the "rounded" letters. In any event, thanks again. I'll move Metzger's book higher on my "wish list" and consider amateur hour to have ended. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 10:56:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19425; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:56:39 -0400 Message-ID: <370A1F99.52F696E7@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:52:09 -0500 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: graphai CC: TC-List , ioudaios-l , Biblical Greek , Synoptic-L , Crosstalk Subject: tc-list C-P Back up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 433 Sorry to post an essentially off topic message, but this to to let you know that the server for Corpus Paulinum now seems to restored. May I once again extend an invitation to all to come and join us on what is proving to be a lively list! Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/corpus-paul Apologies for cross-posting. Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 11:39:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA19695; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:39:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199904061539.LAA19690@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> From: "Dave Washburn" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:42:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <370A1170.E32483BF@historian.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2623 Jack wrote: > Michael Holmes wrote: > > > > At 08:08 AM 4/6/99 -0500, Jack Kilmon asked: > > > "Uncial" has been used as a term for > > >book hand Greek by every scholar I can think of, including > > >Metzger, as far back as the science goes in publications. I have > > >even seen it applied to Coptic by Irigoin and Turner. If such is > > >the case, isn't usage the determination of what is proper? > > > > The (relatively recent) preference of many for "majuscule" likely reflects a > > point of view expressed by D.C. Parker: > > > > "It has long been habitual to describe this class of MSS as uncials. The > > word's use has its origin in Mabillon's interpretation of Jerome's phrase > > about MSS written _uncialibus litteris_. Whatever the original meaning, a > > consensus has emerged that the name should be applied only to a particular > > kind of Latin majuscule. [he references: G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek > > Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_ (University of London > > Institute of Classical Studies Buletin Supplement 47; London:" Institute of > > Classical Studies, 1987).] The word _majuscule_ should be used to designate > > the class of Greek hands of which we write. It means "of fair size," as > > opposed to minuscule, "rather small." (D. C. Parker, "The Majuscule > > Manuscripts of the New Testament," in Ehrman and Holmes, _The Text of the NT > > in Contemporary Research_, 22). > > > > So "uncial" has gone from being a rather general term to a more precisely > > defined technical term, and is in the process of being replaced for general > > use by "majuscule." > > Parker's usage in "Codex Bezae" made me think that he was > involved in this transition. Because of the common origin > and calligraphic similarity between Greek and Latin hands, > I have never seen a problem using "uncial" for either but > if the majority of scholarship adopts this...hey, I'm > flexible. :) Its going to take a long time though. Speaking strictly from the POV of language, it really doesn't matter how the term originated. What is important is that all who are involved in the field understand how it's currently used. As someone else pointed out, "uncial" has been the standard term for a particular Greek style of writing for over 100 years, which suggests that the word has assumed that meaning WRT Greek mss. and has transcended its original Latin connotation. That's what words do, so I see no good reason to try and supplant it for the sake of its etymology. Dave Washburn http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur A Bible that's falling apart means a life that isn't. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 11:58:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA19876; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:58:57 -0400 Message-Id: <370A296B.696FC381@chemie.uni-bremen.de> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:34:04 +0200 From: Wieland Willker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Book info? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 461 Can someone please give me a short description about the content of this book: The Greek New Testament analyzed Guillemette, Pierre Kitchener, Ontario: Herald Pr., 1986 XLII, 435 S. ISBN: 0-8361-3418-4 -- Best wishes Wieland ------------------------------------- willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de http://purl.org/Willker/index.html Secret Mark Homepage: http://purl.org/Willker/Secret/secmark_home.html ------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 14:49:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA21190; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:49:01 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990406185249.00929804@utc.campuscw.net> X-Sender: cierpke.utc@utc.campuscw.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:52:49 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Kevin W. Woodruff" Subject: Re: tc-list Book info? Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1292 It is based upon the 26th ed of Nestle-alands. The work is written in English, French German, Spanish and Italian. It grammatically analyzes every word in the Greek Testament including those of the critical apparatuses of both the NA26 and UBS3. . It updates Bagster's 1852 Analytical Greek Lexicon and the 1977 revison by Harold K. Moulton. At 05:34 PM 4/6/99 +0200, you wrote: >Can someone please give me a short description about the content of this >book: > >The Greek New Testament analyzed > Guillemette, Pierre > Kitchener, Ontario: Herald Pr., 1986 > XLII, 435 S. >ISBN: 0-8361-3418-4 > >-- >Best wishes > Wieland > >------------------------------------- >willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de >http://purl.org/Willker/index.html >Secret Mark Homepage: >http://purl.org/Willker/Secret/secmark_home.html >------------------------------------- > > Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div. Library Director/Reference Librarian Professor of New Testament Greek Cierpke Memorial Library Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary 1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404 United States of America 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX) Cierpke@utc.campuscw.net (preferred) kwoodruf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu (alternate) http://web.utk.edu/~kwoodruf/woodruff.htm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 15:06:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21349; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:06:04 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <370A296B.696FC381@chemie.uni-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:13:13 +0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Carlton Winbery Subject: Re: tc-list Book info? Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 958 >Can someone please give me a short description about the content of this >book: > >The Greek New Testament analyzed > Guillemette, Pierre > Kitchener, Ontario: Herald Pr., 1986 > XLII, 435 S. >ISBN: 0-8361-3418-4 I used this book rather extensively when working on a Morphology. He has a very high standard of accuracy. He does not cover every word but certainly every word impt for translation. It is as the name implies a chapter and verse parsing of most words in the text of the NT. It would be most useful to check one's own accuracy in analyzing forms in the text and for reviewing by reading Greek of the NT. It may be rendered obsolete by the use of Accordance, but I suppose there are many who will not be able to afford Accordance and he does occasionaly give bits of syntax as well. Carlton L. Winbery Fogleman Professor of Religion Louisiana College Pineville, LA 71359 winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net winbery@andria.lacollege.edu From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 15:47:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21588; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:47:25 -0400 From: Fivefree@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:49:17 EDT Subject: tc-list Comfort book To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 161 Could someone please comment on the accuracy and validity of Philip Comfort's book "The Complete Text of the N.T. Earliest Manuscripts". Regards, JM Jackson From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 18:03:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA22451; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:03:10 -0400 Message-ID: <010d01be8079$a6724f60$54256887@typok.research.bell-labs.com> From: "George Kiraz" To: Subject: tc-list Question: On-line Critical Editions Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:05:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 615 Is anyone aware of any on-line critical editions of Biblical and/or classical texts (be it in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, etc.)? To minimize traffic, you can reply directly to me at gkiraz@research.bell-labs.com and I will post the result to the list. George Kiraz ---------- George Anton Kiraz, Ph.D. Language Modeling Research Bell Laboratories Lucent Technologies Room 2D-430 700 Mountain Ave. Murray Hill, NJ 07974 Tel. +1 908 582 4074 Fax. +1 908 582 3306 email: gkiraz@research.bell-labs.com Bell Labs Text-to-Speech: http://www.bell-labs.com/project/tts Hugoye Journal: http://www.acad.cua.edu/syrcom/Hugoye From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 18:11:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA22502; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:11:52 -0400 Message-ID: <370A86FC.E08C958@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:13:17 -0500 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TC-List Subject: tc-list Tischendorff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 271 What have list members discovered as the best approach to deciphering and using Tischendorff's critical apparatus, especially of Galatians? Thanks, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 6 18:30:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA22621; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:30:41 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: waltzmn@popmail.skypoint.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <370A86FC.E08C958@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:36:54 -0500 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Robert B. Waltz" Subject: Re: tc-list Tischendorff Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1124 On 4/6/99, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote: >What have list members discovered as the best approach to deciphering and using >Tischendorff's critical apparatus, especially of Galatians? Deciphering in what sense? The old manuscript numbers? There are conversion tables in the _Kurzgefasste Liste_ and in (oh, whatever its name was; Gregory's book that introduced Gregory Numbering). If you can't find either of those, I have a partial conversion table at the ENTTC site. (It doesn't include everything -- I don't want to violate anyone's copyright -- but on the other hand, you can *search* it. :-) For the rest, the proper reference is of course Gregory's introduction. Though I've never had much trouble with Tischendorf's editions, except for the manuscript numbers. And this even though my Latin is weak.... -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Robert B. Waltz waltzmn@skypoint.com Want more loudmouthed opinions about textual criticism? Try my web page: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn (A site inspired by the Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 7 02:07:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA23876; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:07:34 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:12:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: RE: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000401be8038$24ed2dc0$2ec5a380@guido2.bae.uky.edu> References: <199904060920.KAA10369@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 769 D.R. Edwards wrote: > Thanks for the response. I double-checked the relevant passage in Mack'= s > book, so it may be that the first option (confused account) is more like= ly > than the second. Things are considerably clearer now. > > Your two numbered paragraphs are consistent with what I've been able to = put > together on the topic, which is why I found it hard to follow Mack's > argument. From what I've been able to learn on the topic, rounding of > certain uncial letters appears to have begun in the late 2d century, > possibly in Alexandria, possibly as a result of increased use of parchme= nt; > one of the reasons for the dating of the fragments was that they appeare= d to > exhibit a transition from the "blocked" letters to the "rounded" letters= From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 7 06:47:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA25463; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:47:15 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" Organization: Universitaet Regensburg To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:51:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: RE: tc-list Uncial or Uncial? Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2281 One more example demonstrating (my) stupidity (cut message). Sorry. Edward, I wouldn=B4t be that optimistic about secure dating on palaeographical grounds. Many hands almost resemble each other but nonetheless have characteristics on their own. Not to forget that scribes might have attempted at imitating a kind of archaic style, a style out of fashion in their time, or they indeliberately wrote in a way which was still to come into fashion during the next generations. The repayment of a loan, P.Vindob.G 19811, for instance, carries three subscriptions spanning a period of about four hundred years (different styles) if only palaeography= is taken as the decisive factor for dating. Luckily, a notary put down (in= a regular cursive hand) his remark and a date. Nonetheless, for literary documents there are, in most cases, no other possibilities to judge from the style of writing, compare that with other manuscripts, and then give a= hypothetical date. But: this remains hypothetical, and if a specific style= of writing falls out of fashion, does not mean that it will not appear later on somewhere. Apart from Metzger, I would recommend: F. G. Kenyon, The Palaeography of Greek Papyri, London 1899; W. Schubart, Palaeographie. Erster Teil: Griechische Palaeographie, Handbuch der Altertumswissenschaft I,4,1, Munich 1925 (a classic); E.M. Thompson, A Handbook of Greek and Latin Paleography, Chicago 1968; E.G. Turner, Greek Manuscripts of the Ancient World, 2nd ed. London 1987, and above all: R. Seider, Palaeographie der griechischen Papyri. 3 vols, Stuttgart 1967-1990. P.S.: Dave Washburn mentioned: "... "uncial" has been the standard term for a particular Greek style of writing for over 100 years". This is misleading as long as you do not say which kind of uncial writing you mean= (uncial vs minuscule!). By the way, the original meaning of uncial and majuscule definitely is of importance to judge and understand the way of writing found in a manuscript in a proper way (see e.g. Turner, Greek Manuscripts, 1-5). Best wishes, Thomas J. Kraus Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 9 08:40:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA10883; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:40:23 -0400 Message-Id: <370DEEAE.FB7C0D0B@chemie.uni-bremen.de> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 14:12:30 +0200 From: Wieland Willker X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Synopsis for Daniel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 831 New book: Koch, Klaus;Rösel, Martin: Polyglottensynopse zum Buch Daniel Neukirchener ca. 420 S.. - Gebunden ISBN 3-7887-1741-6 198,- DM (176,- SFr, 1445,- ÖS) The following text comes with the advertisement: The ancient manuscripts and versions of the book of Daniel, moreover the fragments found at Qumran, shows us a great number of variant readings. The synopsis presents the Hebrew-Aramaic text and the Syrian, Greek and Latin translations in parallel lines. An apparatus notes down every important variant, including those of the Qumran manuscripts. Best wishes Wieland ------------------------------------- willker@chemie.uni-bremen.de Secret Mark Homepage: http://purl.org/Willker/Secret/secmark_home.html Egerton Homepage: http://purl.org/Willker/Egerton/Egerton_home.html ------------------------------------- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 13 17:36:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA22115; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:36:04 -0400 Message-ID: <3713B907.5C6AE538@mailhost.chi.ameritech.net> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:37:12 -0500 From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ioudaios-l CC: TC-List Subject: tc-list off topic -- yet *another* list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 679 Call me crazy, especially given the amount of time it takes in being involved with Corpus Paulinum, but I'm thinking about setting up yet *another* list -- this one to be dedicated to the discussion of critical questions surrounding the Gospel of Mark. Do List Members feel that such a list is needed and/or would be viable? Let me know, please. And if you haven't paid a visit to C-P yet, please do so. Come on over and browse our archives at http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=corpus-paul to see all that's been happening there. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson 7423 N. Sheridan Road #2A Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail jgibson000@ameritech.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 14 12:27:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA28342; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:27:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:32:40 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: ljgrn@bluejay.creighton.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: ljgrn@creighton.edu (Leonard Greenspoon) Subject: Re: tc-list Wanted: Good homes for tc books Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 621 Johann--let me know if you are interesting in reviewing any of these for TC..thanks, leonard *Wevers, John William. Notes on the Greek Text of Numbers *Flesher, Paul V. M., ed. Targum Studies, Volume 2: Targum and Peshitta *G=FCting, Eberhard W and David L. Mealand. Asyndeton in Paul: A Text-Criticism and Statistical Enquiry into Pauline Style *Sharpe, John and Kimberly van Kampen, eds. The Bible as Book: The Manuscript Tradition *van der Kooij, Arie, The Oracle of Tyre: The Septuagint of Isaiah 23 as Version and Vision *de Waard, Jan, A Handbook on Isaiah. Textual Criticism and the Translator volume 1. From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 15 04:17:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA05211; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:17:26 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415102233.006ce558@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be> X-Sender: p4246500@mail.cc.kuleuven.ac.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:22:33 +0200 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Johan Lust Subject: Re: tc-list Wanted: Good homes for tc books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 527 Dear, I already have to write something about Wevers' Numbers for ETL, and I have van der Kooij's book. I am interested in - Sharpe, John and Kimberly van Kampen, eds. The Bible as Book: The Manuscript Tradition; - Flesher, Paul V. M., ed. Targum Studies, Volume 2: Targum and Peshitta, - de Waard, Jan, A Handbook on Isaiah. Textual Criticism and the Translator. Johan ------ At 11:32 14/04/99 -0500, you wrote: >Johann--let me know if you are interesting in reviewing any of these for >TC..thanks, leonard > > > > > From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 15 09:30:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06989; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:30:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:35:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: ljgrn@bluejay.creighton.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: ljgrn@creighton.edu (Leonard Greenspoon) Subject: Re: tc-list Wanted: Good homes for tc books Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 27 thanks, Johan -- leonard From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 09:23:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08189; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:23:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:23:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: TC List Subject: tc-list Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 2264 I received this query concerning the dating of the Chester Beatty papyri, and I'm forwarding it to the list (with the author's permission) for your comments. *********************************************************** James R. Adair, Jr. Director, ATLA Center for Electronic Texts in Religion Listowner, tc-list *********************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:45:02 -1000 From: Maui Gateway To: jadair@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri May I please get your help in answering several questions concerning the Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri? 1. Are you familiar with the following article: Young Kyu Kim, "Palaeographical Dating of p46 to the Later First Century," Biblica, Vol. 69, No. 2, 1988 http://members.aol.com/egweimi/p46.htm If so, have you or your colleagues published any response to it? And could you share with me your thoughts on the validity of his arguments? Also, do you know how I might contact Kim? 2. I found reference to the following presentation in the 1996 Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) Annual Meeting Sessions Abstracts Index (s153.html), S153 New Testament Textual Criticism Section S153 "The Palaeographical Dating of P46" by Bruce W. Griffin, University of Oxford "P46 is usually assigned to circa AD 200. But recently Kim has argued for a date in the reign of Domitian (AD 81-96). This paper offers an analysis and critique of the palaeographical evidence for the dating of P46." http://www.sbl-site.org/scripts/SBL/abstracts96/s153.html Are you or your colleagues familiar with Griffen's presentation? If so, could you share with me your thoughts on his presentation? Do you know how I might get a copy? Also, do you know how I might contact Griffen? 3. Could you offer any suggestions as to how or where I might locate any other recent discussions of the dating of P46? 4. Who would you suggest as the top 5-10 papyrologists specializing in palaeography would would be competent to discuss the dating of P46 in detail? Thanks for any help you can give. Rev. Ken Burns, Pastor God's Way Ministry, Inc. 2000 Paulele Place Kihei, Maui, HI 96753 USA (808) 879-3929 (tel/fax) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 09:51:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA08430; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:51:28 -0400 Message-ID: <371C878E.849FBEA0@volstate.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:56:30 -0400 From: "Nelson D. Roth" Organization: Compu-Sistance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Re: Fragments of Matthew located at Magdelan College, Oxford References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 246 I would appreciate any comments concerning fragments of the Gospel of Matthew studied by Dr. Carsten Peter Thiede, of Magdalen College, Oxford. Dr. Thiede has dated them to approximately between 40 and 70 A.D. Nelson D. Roth nroth@volstate.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 10:19:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08666; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:19:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:17:12 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list Re: Fragments of Matthew located at Magdelan College, Oxford X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990420141712.0066dad8@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 638 At 09:56 AM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >I would appreciate any comments concerning fragments of the Gospel of Matthew >studied by Dr. Carsten Peter Thiede, of Magdalen College, Oxford. Dr. Thiede has >dated them to approximately between 40 and 70 A.D. > >Nelson D. Roth >nroth@volstate.net See the excellent book by Graham Stanton- Gospel Truth. He shows quite clearly that Thiede's dating is quite impossible. Best, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 10:32:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08787; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:32:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:32:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "James R. Adair" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Re: Fragments of Matthew located at Magdelan College, Oxford In-Reply-To: <371C878E.849FBEA0@volstate.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 679 Nelson, You might want to search the tc-list archives, since we've had several discussions on this topic over the past few years. Go to http://www.egroups.com/group/tc-list and do a search for Magdalen (also spelled Magdelan in some messages), Theide, P64, etc. If you're a real glutton for punishment, you can download the entire tc-list archive from ftp://shemesh.scholar.emory.edu/pub/openhouse/tc-list and do your own local searches (e.g., grep). Jimmy *********************************************************** James R. Adair, Jr. Director, ATLA Center for Electronic Texts in Religion Listowner, tc-list *********************************************************** From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 11:16:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09188; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:16:57 -0400 Message-ID: <371C9BC7.5B14D3D1@historian.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:22:47 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list Re: Fragments of Matthew located at Magdelan College, Oxford References: <371C878E.849FBEA0@volstate.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 737 Thiede is all alone in his dating of the Magdalen Papyri. A third century date is more likely. His claim on palaeographic grounds is much too narrow beyond the historical problems of dating a Gospel written by a Greek-speaking Syrian diaspora scribe to the 1st half of the 1st century. Jack "Nelson D. Roth" wrote: > > I would appreciate any comments concerning fragments of the Gospel of Matthew > studied by Dr. Carsten Peter Thiede, of Magdalen College, Oxford. Dr. Thiede has > dated them to approximately between 40 and 70 A.D. > > Nelson D. Roth > nroth@volstate.net -- ______________________________________________ taybutheh d'maran yeshua masheecha am kulkon Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 12:41:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA10450; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:41:57 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:43:19 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Steven Carr Subject: tc-list John 7:8 in p66 and p75 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (16) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 283 This is a very elementary question to which I could easily find the answer by looking in NA27. However, I don't have my copy with me here on my travels, so could somebody tell me please if 'yet' in John 7:8 is in p66 and p75 and, if possible, which manuscripts it is missing from? From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 13:17:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA10665; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:17:09 -0400 Message-ID: <371CB5D9.A5436DD2@historian.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:14:02 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list John 7:8 in p66 and p75 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 431 I am not at home to check my sources either but would be interested in whether this is OUPW or OUK or absent. Jack Steven Carr wrote: > This is a very elementary question to which I could easily find the > answer by looking in NA27. > > However, I don't have my copy with me here on my travels, so could > somebody tell me please if 'yet' in John 7:8 is in p66 and p75 and, if > possible, which manuscripts it is missing from? From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 13:17:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA10688; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:17:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:21:57 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list John 7:8 in p66 and p75 X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990420172157.0067170c@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 585 At 05:43 PM 4/20/99 +0100, you wrote: >This is a very elementary question to which I could easily find the >answer by looking in NA27. > >However, I don't have my copy with me here on my travels, so could >somebody tell me please if 'yet' in John 7:8 is in p66 and p75 and, if >possible, which manuscripts it is missing from? > > p66 has oudepw p75 has oupw best, jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 14:30:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11376; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:30:17 -0400 X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRcjGgZXN9TlE4bgETn6MF5JiCLCQIUevNXMIgVW+pu8ASrlRUkUkUwjW0= From: nswift@webtv.net (Norman Swift) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:35:26 -0400 (EDT) To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list John 5:3b, 4, first appearance Message-ID: <3343-371CC8EE-9285@postoffice-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Steven Carr 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:43:19 +0100 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 217 I believe the Alexandrinus is the first to include this material re an angel stirring the pool of Bethzatha. I have no access to authoritative info just now. Can anyone help me nail down dates and MSS? Thanks! Norm From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 14:45:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11559; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:45:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:50:35 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list John 5:3b, 4, first appearance X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990420185035.006633d0@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1226 At 02:35 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >I believe the Alexandrinus is the first to include this material re an >angel stirring the pool of Bethzatha. I have no access to authoritative >info just now. >Can anyone help me nail down dates and MSS? >Thanks! >Norm > > NA 27's text deletes 3b and 4 altogether. The variants within the addition are numerous. It is found in A C(3) L Theta Psi 078(vid) Fam 1,13 and of course the Byzantine majority text. It is absent from P66 P75 Sin. B C* D T W 33 and some versions... As you can tell, the oldest mss do not contain this verse. Accroding to Metzger's "Commentary"- Ver. 4 is a gloss, whose secondary character is clear from (1) its absence from the earliest and best witnesses (listed above), (2) the presence of asterisks or obeli to mark the words as spurious in more than twenty Greek witnesses, (3) the presence of non-Johannine words or expressions.... and (4) the rather wide diversity of variant forms in which the verse was transmitted. Best, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 20 14:50:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11621; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:50:05 -0400 From: TonyProst@aol.com Message-ID: <87a35510.244e2749@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:54:01 EDT Subject: Re: tc-list John 5:3b, 4, first appearance To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 263 The reference does not appear in the Nonnos Paraphrase, c. 450 A.D., written at Alexandria. His text of John appears to end with asthenounto^n and pick up with ho oun pro^tos. Regards, Tony Prost All Nonnos All Day http://members.aol.com/tonyprost/index.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 21 09:10:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17617; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:10:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:10:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199904211310.JAA17612@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:48:02 +0200 From: "Thomas J. Kraus" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Cc: thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de Subject: tc-list help on an article by E.J. Epp Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1639 Dear TC-ers, fortunately I made an excerpt of an article by E.J. Epp with the titel *Toward the Clarification of the Term "Textual Variant" (published in: E.J. Epp and G.D. Fee, Studies in the Theory and Method of New Testament Textual Criticism (Studies and Documents 45; Grand Rapids 1993)), but unfortunately, I did not copy of how many pages this study is made up. I know that it was published in J. K. Elliott, ed., Studies in the New Testament Language and Text. Essays in Honor of G.D. Kilpatrick (NT.S 44; Leiden 1976) pp. 153-173, but for a citation I need its correct place in Epp's and Fee's *Studies*. Please, can anybody help me on this? By the way: what sounds very plausible and absolutely necessary in theory might cause problems in practice. Can we be certain to distinguish between nonsense readings, singular readings, and the like on the one hand and textual variants worth being discussed on a broader scale on the other? Principally, I think E.C. Colwell (Scribal Habits, in: NTTS 9, 106-124) and Epp are right. But nevertheless, practice brought me in a kind of hustle: when are readings singular ones (even a variant witnessed by only one manuscript can be correct according to Kilpatrick/Elliott)? When do we have an intentional and an unintentional error, when only the language used in dialects (itacisms)? Any notions out there on the whole of that? Best wishes, Thomas J. Kraus Universitaet Regensburg Kath.-theol. Fakultaet Universitaetsstr. 31 D-93053 Regensburg Federal Republic of Germany Tel. + 49 941 943 36 90 Fax. + 49 941 943 19 86 thomas-juergen.kraus@theologie.uni-regensburg.de From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 21 09:25:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17681; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:25:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199904211330.OAA20020@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:25:23 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list help on an article by E.J. Epp Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199904211310.JAA17612@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1136 The Epp article = E.J.Epp, "Toward the Clarification of the Term 'Textual Variant'," in Epp & G. D. Fee, _Studies in the Theory & Method of NT Textual Criticism_ (SD 45; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993), 47-61. "Nonesense readings" and "singular readings" and "non-significant" readings all require judgement of specific cases. "Nonesense" must be not simply awkward but so obviously impossible as real Greek as to be obvious to other readers as well that it is a scribal error. "Singular" in pratice means a reading/variant that you can't find in any other ms using the tools available (e.g., Tischendorf, other apparati, published/collate mss,etc.). I.e., "singular" to be the best of your knowledge. To judge something as "singular" does not automatically mean it cannot be original. But collections of singular readings of individual mss *collectively* form a data set from which to make inferences about the scribal *tendencies* and preferences of the ms. L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 21 11:34:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26345; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:34:25 -0400 Message-ID: <004601be8c0c$fed4aec0$7cd556d1@default> From: "Michael Burer" To: "TC List" Subject: tc-list a visit to the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:37:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 856 Greetings -- I will have the fortunate privilege this summer of visiting Paris, and I hope to visit the Bibliotheque Nationale and view some NT manuscripts. I was able to go one day in the summer of 1997, but I did not have any success (for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was finding the manuscript library. It's a lot more difficult than one would think!) I would like to solicit advice or suggestions from those who have visited on how to make the most of a visit to that library: how to see an actual manuscript as opposed to a facsimile or microfilm, how to purchase a microfilm, manuscripts you would suggest viewing, etc. I would appreciate anything you think might be helpful. Please respond off list since this is more of a personal request. Best regards, Michael Burer Ph. D. Student Dallas Theological Seminary Dallas, TX, USA From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 21 12:06:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA27412; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:06:49 -0400 From: STORYBROWN@aol.com Message-ID: <482d47b1.244f4c6f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:44:47 EDT Subject: Re: tc-list a visit to the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 545 In a message dated 4/21/99 8:40:00 AM, you wrote: <> I've had similar difficulties & would also appreciate any guidelines or tips. G.S. Brown, PhD From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 21 12:57:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA05419; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:57:09 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990421130218.006a7994@pop.uky.edu> X-Sender: jlars0@pop.uky.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:02:18 -0400 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: Jason Larson Subject: tc-list text crit and encoding In-Reply-To: <004601be8c0c$fed4aec0$7cd556d1@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 514 Greetings, I am currently engaged in a research project examining the potential of encoding text criticism in SGML/XML for advanced scholarly electronic access to biblical manuscripts. My question is whether or not anyone is currently undertaking a similar project in TC? There are several excellent projects being performed in other fields. The potential research value of encoding manuscripts to standards of textual criticism is, I believe, tremendous. Regards, Jason T. Larson The University of Kentucky From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 22 10:07:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA14209; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:07:15 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Glen Thompson" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:12:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list a visit to the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004601be8c0c$fed4aec0$7cd556d1@default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990422091757.e960cefbf83811d29d530080c8678d5f.in@mailhost.mlc-wels.edu> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 4072 Since there have been 2 requests about the Bibl. Nat., and I can remember my own trepidation and confusion when I made my first visit to PAris, I will respond on list for the benefit of the younger scholars. I have worked numerous times at the BN, most recently for 2 weeks in Feb. of 1998. I look for others to update, correct or supplement what I write below: >Michael Burer" wrote: > I will have the fortunate privilege this summer of visiting Paris, and I > hope to visit the Bibliotheque Nationale and view some NT manuscripts. I was > able to go one day in the summer of 1997, but I did not have any success > (for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was finding the manuscript > library. It's a lot more difficult than one would think!) While each European library has different guidelines for access to mss., those of the Bilb. Nat. are not unusual for a large library. The mss. reading room is presently, and will remain from all my information, in the old building in the Rue Richelieu. There is some talk about moving into the first floor, but that was still talk the last I heard. There is also some talk about moving the IRHT micorfilm collections to the same building, which would be a wonderful thing for all scholars. Before going to the reading room, you must obtain a readers card at the first floor office. There are several options, and you must pay for a two week, or one year card, etc. (I don't remember all the options), but the sums are reasonable. Once you have your card you can take it up to the second floor reading room. First check your coat on the first floor. Inside the door of the reading room, the security person will take your card and give you a colored token with a number on it -- your assigned seat for the day. If you have too many books, bags, etc., he/she will also give you a key to store those things in the lockers just outside the reading room. You can then take your papers, pencils (no pens allowed), etc. with you to the assigned desk. In the center of the reading room is a round desk with staff to answer your questions, but unless you hit it lucky, don't expect much help unless you know French (the same goes for the security people and all other staff on the second floor). The walls are lined with mss. catalogs for your reference. The desk at the far end of the room is where you fill out the forms to request mss. The nearby card files will let you know which mss. are available on microfilm. The last time I was there (Feb. of '98) was the first time that they insisted that I use microfilms when they were available. Previously I could always see the ms. itself. After filling in the ms. request form, hand it to the staff at that far desk. They will also take the plastic rectangle with your desk number on it and give you a similar one in a different color (one is orange, the other green). You have to re-exchange those after handing in the last ms. for the day, so that you can get out the door again. You can then sit at your desk and give them 15-20 minutes to have your mss. brought up from the vaults. I can't remember for sure, but I believe they deliver the mss. right to your desk. You can use only a certain number of mss. per day (5, I believe). You can use several simultaneously if you are doing some sort of comparison. While the lighting is not great and the room is not airconditioned, in general the working conditions and staff are quite good. If they give you a microfilm, there are readers available to use them as well. The staff will begin chasing you out a few minutes before closing, another time-honored European tradition. At the center desk you can find a form for ordering photos and microfilms. This can be filled out as you work. Upon completion of your stay, the form is handed in at an office in the first floor courtyard. They will total your order and you can pay at that time (even with credit card). Your order will be sent to you a month or so later. Glen L. Thompson From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 22 13:30:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA19283; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:30:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:35:06 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: tc-list coptic X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990422173506.00665a18@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 289 Hello listers, anyone know where i can acquire a Coptic NT? thanks, jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 23 02:21:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA28051; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:21:26 -0400 From: Cook@AKAD.SUN.AC.ZA Organization: University Stellenbosch To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:25:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list coptic Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19990422173506.00665a18@highland.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Message-Id: Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 984 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:35:06 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: tc-list coptic To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Reply-to: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Hello listers, anyone know where i can acquire a Coptic NT? thanks, jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest You should obtain a Coptic NT at any Bible society. Do you know the excellent handbook by Lambdin Introduction to Sahidic Coptic? Prof. Johann Cook Department of Ancient Studies UNIVERSITY OF STELLENBOSCH, PRIVATE BAG X1 MATIELAND ZA-7602 SOUTH AFRICA TEL:(0027-21) 8083203; 8083207 FAX: (0027-21) 8083480 E-mail: cook@akad.sun.ac.za HOMEPAGES: http://www.sun.ac.za/as (Ancient Studies) http://www.sun.ac.za/as/journals/jnsl (Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages) From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 23 10:28:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00319; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:28:45 -0400 From: Kaitbr@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:33:07 EDT Subject: Fwd: tc-list coptic To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu CC: Cook@akad.sun.ac.za MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_ce31a818.2451dea3_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3707 --part1_ce31a818.2451dea3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, I sent the request for a coptic NT to my professor in Bangor and=20 the following is his reply. Kait Bragdon-Roe Peaks Island, ME 04108 In a message dated 4/23/99 9:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 DTrobisch@bts.edu writes: << Kait, This is the version I used, but it is out of print. =20 Horner, George The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Northern Dialect, otherwise called Memphitic and Bohairic: With Introduction, Critical Apparatus, and Literal English Translation Vol.III: The Epistles of S.Paul edited from MS.oriental 424 in the British Museum (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905 =3D reprint Osnabr=FCck, 1969). =20 A more recent edition is, but out of print as well: Coptic Biblical Texts in the Dialect of Upper Egypt=20 by Ernest A. Budge (Editor= )=20 (July 1977) AMS Press; ISBN: 0404115527=20 =20 =20 =20 David Trobisch Bangor Theological Seminary 300 Union Street Bangor, ME 04401 email DTrobisch@BTS.edu >> --part1_ce31a818.2451dea3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb02.mx.aol.com (rly-yb02.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.2]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:40:24 -0400 Received: from bangor.bts.edu (bangor.bts.edu [209.222.215.189]) by rly-yb02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA04472 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bangor.bts.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:37:35 -0400 Message-ID: <04A9B1801E61D2118C2E00A0C9550CDF0A3253@bangor.bts.edu> From: "Trobisch, David" To: "'Kaitbr@aol.com'" Subject: RE: tc-list coptic Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:37:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: DTrobisch@bts.edu Kait, This is the version I used, but it is out of print. Horner, George The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Northern Dialect, otherwise called Memphitic and Bohairic: With Introduction, Critical Apparatus, and Literal English Translation Vol.III: The Epistles of S.Paul edited from MS.oriental 424 in the British Museum (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1905 =3D reprint Osnabr=FCck, 1969). A more recent edition is, but out of print as well: Coptic Biblical Texts in the Dialect of Upper Egypt=20 by Ernest A. Budge (Editor)=20 (July 1977) AMS Press; ISBN: 0404115527=20 David Trobisch Bangor Theological Seminary 300 Union Street Bangor, ME 04401 email DTrobisch@BTS.edu =09-----Original Message----- =09From:=09Kaitbr@aol.com [SMTP:Kaitbr@aol.com] =09Sent:=09Friday, April 23, 1999 5:54 AM =09To:=09dtrobisch@bts.edu =09Subject:=09Fwd: tc-list coptic =09David, I thought you might have an answer for this person. I am on a list for=20 =09textual crit. and this is where you should reply if you know:=20 =09tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu =20 =09See you later. =09Kait Bragdon-Roe =09In a message dated 4/23/99 2:30:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 =09Cook@AKAD.SUN.AC.ZA writes: =09<<=20 =09 Hello listers, =09=20 =09 anyone know where i can acquire a Coptic NT? =09=20 =09 thanks, =09=20 =09 jim =09=20 =09 + >> =09 << Message: Re: tc-list coptic >>=20 --part1_ce31a818.2451dea3_boundary-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 23 12:30:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA01161; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:30:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199904231634.SAA28371@carno.brus.online.be> Subject: Re: Fwd: tc-list coptic Date: Ven, 23 Avr 99 18:38:28 +0200 x-sender: vale5655@pop3.brus.online.be x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Jean Valentin To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 990 ><< Kait, > This is the version I used, but it is out of print. > For the Gospels in Sahidic Coptic, the editions by Quecke are recent = and probably still in print. There's also the proto-bohairic Johnin = the Louvain CSCO collection. I think that those at least are still = available. I'm not sure the Bible Societies have anything in print = nowadays - and if they have, it's probably of no critical value = compared to Quecke or even Horner. You'll also find large Gospel texts in most Coptic graamars and = chrestomathies (isn't there a recent one in another Louvain = collection?). Jean V. _______________________________________________________________ Jean Valentin - 34 rue du Berceau - 1000 Bruxelles - Belgique tel. 32-2-280.01.37 e-mail : jgvalentin@arcadis.be _______________________________________________________________ "Ce qui est trop simple est faux, ce qui est trop compliqu=E9 est = inutilisable" _______________________________________________________________ From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 23 23:50:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA15982; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:50:56 -0400 Message-ID: <372140A7.3D5F6C4E@cadets.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:55:19 -0500 From: Maurice Taraschi X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: tc-list coptic References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B4EFF95FF11DB3921D18B7DF" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 990 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B4EFF95FF11DB3921D18B7DF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kaitbr@aol.com wrote: > A more recent edition is, but out of print as well: > Coptic Biblical Texts in the Dialect of Upper Egypt > by Ernest A. Budge > > The above mentioned text only has, as far the the NT is concerned, The Acts and The Apocalypse. For the OT it has Deuteronomy and Jonah. Maurice Taraschi St. Thomas Academy --------------B4EFF95FF11DB3921D18B7DF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mtaraschi.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Maurice Taraschi Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mtaraschi.vcf" begin:vcard n:Taraschi;Maurice tel;work:St. Thomas Academy, St. Paul, MN x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:mtaraschi@cadets.com x-mozilla-cpt:;2592 fn:Maurice Taraschi end:vcard --------------B4EFF95FF11DB3921D18B7DF-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Tue Apr 27 22:32:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA04468; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:32:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:35:30 +0800 (WST) From: Timothy John Finney X-Sender: finney@central To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu cc: tc-list-digest@shemesh, Jason Larson Subject: tc-list Encoding biblical manuscripts In-Reply-To: <199904230630.CAA28160@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-758783491-925266930=:29750" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 3824 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---559023410-758783491-925266930=:29750 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jason Larson wrote the following, --- I am currently engaged in a research project examining the potential of encoding text criticism in SGML/XML for advanced scholarly electronic access to biblical manuscripts. My question is whether or not anyone is currently undertaking a similar project in TC? There are several excellent projects being performed in other fields. The potential research value of encoding manuscripts to standards of textual criticism is, I believe, tremendous. --- I have finished encoding the accessible papyrus and uncial manuscripts of Hebrews. You can get my transcriptions from the following site (for one month only): ftp://socs.murdoch.edu.au/pub/research/Finney You had better use a Mac to get these -- they are binhexed and stuffed images of Mac disks. The encoding scheme is a pre-TEI system invented by Dr Peter Robinson, the author of Collate. I am attaching a key that will help you decipher the transcriptions, should you decide to grab them. On the topic of encoding texts with xml/sgml, there is a relevant summer school at Oxford this July. Contact Michael Fraser for more details (but be quick because registrations are due now): Best regards, Tim Finney. ---559023410-758783491-925266930=:29750 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; name=key Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Transcription key RmlnLiAxOiBUcmFuc2xpdGVyYXRpb24gc2NoZW1lDQoNCkxldHRlcglVbmNp YWwJTWludXNjdWxlCU51bWJlcg0KYWxwaGEJQQlhCTENCmJldGEJQgliCTIN CmdhbW1hCUcJZwkzDQpkZWx0YQlECWQJNA0KZXBzaWxvbglFCWUJNQ0Kd2F3 IChkaWdhbW1hKQktCS0JNg0KemV0YQlaCXoJNw0KZXRhCUgJaAk4DQp0aGV0 YQlRCXEJOQ0KaW90YQlJCWkJMTANCmthcHBhCUsJawkyMA0KbGFtYmRhCUwJ bAkzMA0KbXUJTQltCTQwDQpudQlOCW4JNTANCnhpCVgJeAk2MA0Kb21pY3Jv bglPCW8JNzANCnBpCVAJcAk4MA0Ka29wcGEJLQktCTkwDQpyaG8JUglyCTEw MA0Kc2lnbWEJUwlzCTIwMA0KdGF1CVQJdAkzMDANCnVwc2lsb24JVQl1CTQw MA0KcGhpCUYJZgk1MDANCmNoaQlDCWMJNjAwDQpwc2kJWQl5CTcwMA0Kb21l Z2EJVwl3CTgwMA0Kc2FtcGkJLQktCTkwMA0KDQpUaGlzIHRyYW5zbGl0ZXJh dGlvbiBzY2hlbWUgZGlmZmVycyBmcm9tIHRoZSBUaGVzYXVydXMgTGluZ3Vh ZSBHcmFlY2FlIA0KUHJvamVjdNVzIGJldGEgY29kZSwgaW4gd2hpY2ggQyA9 IHhpIGFuZCBYID0gY2hpLg0KDQoNCkZpZy4gMjogU3BlY2lhbGlzZWQgdGFn cw0KDQpbdXRdyVsvdXRdCXVuY2VydGFpbiB0ZXh0OiBjb3VsZCBiZSBvbmUg b2YgYSBoYW5kZnVsIG9mIGxldHRlcnMNCltydF3JWy9ydF0JcmVjb25zdHJ1 Y3RlZCB0ZXh0OiBtaXNzaW5nLCBvciBjb3VsZCBiZSBhbnkgbGV0dGVyDQoN CltzdF3JWy9zdF0Jc3VwZXJzY3JpcHQgdGV4dDogYWxsb3dzIGlzb2xhdGlv biBmb3IgbGluZSBsZW5ndGggY291bnRzDQpbaXRdyVsvaXRdCWluc2VydGVk IHRleHQ6IG9mdGVuIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBzY3JpYmFsIGluc2VydGlv biBzeW1ib2xzDQoNCltrY13JWy9rY10JS0FJIGNvbXBlbmRpdW0NCltzY13J Wy9zY10Jc2NyaWJhbCBjb250cmFjdGlvbiwgYXMgbGlzdGVkIGluIEdhcmR0 aGF1c2VuDQpbbnNdyVsvbnNdCW5vbWVuIHNhY3J1bSBjb250cmFjdGlvbiBh bmQgc3VwZXJzY3JpcHQgbGluZQ0KW2ZuXclbL2ZuXQlmaW5hbCBudSBzdXBl cnNjcmlwdCBsaW5lDQoNCltkaV3JWy9kaV0JZGlhZXJlc2lzDQpbcmJdyVsv cmJdCXJvdWdoIGJyZWF0aGluZw0KW3NiXclbL3NiXQlzbW9vdGggYnJlYXRo aW5nDQoNCltjMF3JWy9jMF0JY29ycmVjdGlvbiBieSBvcmlnaW5hbCBzY3Jp YmUNCltjMV3JWy9jMV0JY29ycmVjdGlvbiBieSBmaXJzdCBjb3JyZWN0b3IN CltjMl3JWy9jMl0JY29ycmVjdGlvbiBieSBzZWNvbmQgY29ycmVjdG9yDQrJ DQpbY3hdyVsvY3hdCWNvcnJlY3Rpb24gYnkgdW5pZGVudGlmaWVkIGNvcnJl Y3Rvcg0KDQpbZDBdyVsvZDBdCWRlbGV0aW9uIGJ5IG9yaWdpbmFsIHNjcmli ZQ0KW2QxXclbL2QxXQlkZWxldGlvbiBieSBmaXJzdCBjb3JyZWN0b3INCltk Ml3JWy9kMl0JZGVsZXRpb24gYnkgc2Vjb25kIGNvcnJlY3Rvcg0KyQ0KW2R4 XclbL2R4XQlkZWxldGlvbiBieSB1bmlkZW50aWZpZWQgY29ycmVjdG9yDQoN Cg== ---559023410-758783491-925266930=:29750-- From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Wed Apr 28 12:22:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09621; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:22:54 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990428171555.0080f520@gpo.iol.ie> X-Sender: mauros@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:15:55 +0100 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" Subject: tc-list David Daube: two obituaries Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 426 " The Times" (London) has today published, somewhat belatedly, an obituary of Prof. David Daube. It can be read at: http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?1159109 An earlier obituary was posted on the Bekeleyan Online on March 3 at: http://www.urel.berkeley.edu/UREL_1/Campusnews/berkeleyan/1999/0303/obits.html May he rest in peace! Maurice Maurice A. O'Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ] mauros@iol.ie From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 29 09:12:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17348; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:12:15 -0400 Message-ID: <37285B99.F9C06FCA@ao.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:16:09 -0400 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list symbol for YHWH is Pesher to Habukkuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 657 Friends, The Pesher to Habakkuk substitutes an unusual group of 4 symbols as a symbol for the divine name YHWH which is never used in the text or the "peshers." These symbols can be seen at the bottom of page 5 of the Pesher to Habakkuk at the foillowing address. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesher6.htm The symbols for the NAME are also described at the bottom of the following page. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesherhab.htm Can anyone tell me if these are used elsewhere and what may be written about them. Are they actual letters or symbols? Thanks Fred P Miller -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 29 09:17:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17397; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:17:04 -0400 Message-ID: <37285CBA.C263CD02@ao.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:20:59 -0400 From: Fred P Miller X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: emory tc list Subject: tc-list corrected copy -- sorry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 658 Friends, The Pesher to Habakkuk substitutes an unusual group of 4 symbols as a symbol for the divine name YHWH which is never used in the text or the "peshers." These symbols can be seen at the bottom of page 6 of the Pesher to Habakkuk at the following address. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesher6.htm The symbols for the NAME are also described at the bottom of the following page. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesherhab.htm Can anyone tell me if these are used elsewhere and what may be written about them. Are they actual letters or symbols? Thanks Fred P Miller -- Fred P Miller For Bible Study Majoring in Isaiah Http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 29 09:37:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17511; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:37:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199904291342.OAA08996@haymarket.ed.ac.uk> From: "Professor L.W. Hurtado" To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:37:00 +000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: tc-list corrected copy -- sorry Priority: normal In-reply-to: <37285CBA.C263CD02@ao.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 432 The "symbols" for the divine name Mr. Miller is asking about in the DSS mss cited = the tetragrammaton in palaeo-Hebrew characters: YHWH. Yes, a good deal has been written about this phenomenon. Some things are cited in my recent JBL article on the nomina sacra. L. W. Hurtado University of Edinburgh, New College Mound Place Edinburgh, Scotland EH1 2LX Phone: 0131-650-8920 Fax: 0131-650-6579 E-mail: L.Hurtado@ed.ac.uk From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 29 10:34:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA17860; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:34:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:30:49 -0400 From: Jim West Subject: Re: tc-list symbol for YHWH is Pesher to Habukkuk X-Sender: jwest@highland.net To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Message-id: <1.5.4.32.19990429143049.00676fec@highland.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 1379 At 09:16 AM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: >Friends, > >The Pesher to Habakkuk substitutes an unusual group of 4 symbols as a >symbol for the divine name YHWH which is never used in the text or the >"peshers." These symbols can be seen at the bottom of page 5 of the >Pesher to Habakkuk at the foillowing address. > >http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesher6.htm These aren't symbols- these are archaic Hebrew script spelling YHWH. What you see here- and this occurs in a great number of DSS materials, is the archaic alphabet used to spell the name of God. Further, you can, if you wish, download the archaic hebrew font of jack kilmon if you visit www.historian.net and follow the downloads link. > >The symbols for the NAME are also described at the bottom of the >following page. > >http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesherhab.htm Well this isnt exactly accurate. These are again not symbols but simply the archaic hebrew script. There is nothing mysterious here. > >Can anyone tell me if these are used elsewhere and what may be written >about them. Are they actual letters or symbols? > They are actual letters. They are used in lots of places. >Thanks Best, Jim +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jim West, ThD Petros Baptist Church- Pastor Quartz Hill School of Theology- Adjunct Prof. of Bible fax- 978-231-5986 email- jwest@highland.net web page- http://web.infoave.net/~jwest From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Thu Apr 29 12:57:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA19079; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:57:55 -0400 Message-ID: <37288FD7.15D5EC9@historian.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:59:03 -0500 From: Jack Kilmon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: Re: tc-list corrected copy -- sorry References: <37285CBA.C263CD02@ao.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 875 Fred P Miller wrote: > Friends, > > The Pesher to Habakkuk substitutes an unusual group of 4 symbols as a > symbol for the divine name YHWH which is never used in the text or the > "peshers." These symbols can be seen at the bottom of page 6 of the > Pesher to Habakkuk at the following address. > > http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesher6.htm > > The symbols for the NAME are also described at the bottom of the > following page. > > http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/pesherhab.htm > > Can anyone tell me if these are used elsewhere and what may be written > about them. Are they actual letters or symbols? These are the palaeohebrew yod-heh-waw-heh. It was not unusual for the shem haMeforash to be written in palaeohebrew rather than Aramaic square script. You can obtain a fontset I created for palaeohebrew in the font section of my website. Jack http://www.historian.net From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 30 09:33:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25114; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:33:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:33:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199904301333.JAA25109@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:23:12 +0100 From: Robert Kraft To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Subject: tc-list Daube obit Content-Type: text Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 729 Thanks for the addresses for David Daube obituaries. The older one came up easily, but the recent one was more difficult to locate, since the address you provided is for the current day, not for that particular issue. I finally found the right issue (28 April) at http://www.the-times.co.uk/cgi-bin/BackIssue?1159109 in case anyone asks (or if you want to update the notice). I knew DD only slightly, but was very impressed with him and his work. The obits do a good job of capturing some of his human traits. Be well. Bob -- Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827 kraft@ccat.sas.upenn.edu http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html From owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Fri Apr 30 11:56:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: by shemesh.scholar.emory.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26231; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:56:26 -0400 From: "Mark Goodacre" Organization: The University of Birmingham To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:01:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: tc-list David Trobisch article Priority: normal References: <199904230630.CAA28160@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu> In-reply-to: Message-ID: <112DD27907@hhs.bham.ac.uk> Sender: owner-tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tc-list@shemesh.scholar.emory.edu content-length: 549 The following link may be of interest: http://www.religion-online.org/new/trobisch_oldest.html The Oldest Extant Editions of the Letters of Paul, David Trobisch Mark Goodacre -------------------------------------- Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre@bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512 University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdom http://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre Aseneth Home Page Recommended New Testament Web Resources Mark Without Q